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BioWare Forums  Forum Archives Old Dragon Age Forums Dragon Age (Old) The Bioware Plot Model [MANY SPOILERS]
Dragon Age (Old)
Shoofly
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 Posted: Tuesday, 04 December 2007 11:30PM |
As I understand it, there's an official Bioware plot model for their games broken down in the following phases:
I. Short Linear Area, usually used for training/introductory combat (i.e. welcome to the academy, here's how you do this, etc. Oh no we're being attacked!)
II. A plot driver - A cutscene or something that makes the player want to complete the mission ("We have to save our friend", "We have to find out who killed our guardian and who is trying to kill us, etc.)
III. A Large Non Linear Section With Some Mandatory Areas- Although the character is supposedly under time pressure by the plot driver, this section can be played at the players pace and has tons of side quests.
IV. The Surprise - You learn something shocking. "I can't believe I am actually the bad guy I have been tracking from the start!
V. The Showdown - Killing the bad guy, usually twice. Sometimes an initial bad guy is killed before The Surprise and then the main bad guy is killed here.
BG, BG II, NWN, KOTOR (and apparently ME) play this way (I haven't played Jade or ME) with some slight variations.
Is Dragon Age set to follow the same model?
I certainly hope not. The model is tried and true to make good games but it's getting a little stale.
Why not make Dragon Age Bioware's Ultima IV, Fallout or Planescape Torment? Something that gets people to say "Wow! That was different but great!"
And how about an ending where we aren't required to kill someone? It'd be nice to see a game where the solution to a larger problem doesn't just involve the death of the antagonist.
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"Candy's dandy but liquor's quicker!" - Dorothy ParkerEdited By David Gaider on 12/05/07 05:24 | 
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Elof Valantor
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Posted: Tuesday, 04 December 2007 11:54PM |
I don't care how they go about telling the story, to be honest, as long as it's a damn good story, and that they implement the way they choose very well indeed.
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**Has begun poking EA to make sure they leave Bioware alone**
"... well, then you get programmers throwing themselves on their swords in protest." - David Gaider.
I guess I better not work for Bioware after all... what kind of swords? | |
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imported_beer
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 12:50AM |
Quote: Posted 12/04/07 23:30 (GMT) by Shoofly
Why not make Dragon Age Bioware's Ultima IV, Fallout or Planescape Torment? Something that gets people to say "Wow! That was different but great!"
Just to be different?
Personally, I think it is not a plot "model" that makes a game familiar, but reoccuring themes. The themes of someone you trust betraying you, the theme that you are not who you thought you were. But it is more than that- and let me illustrate this with an example:
The first time Manoj Shyamalan made "Sixth Sense", a few people got blown away for the ending. Thus, the surprise twist became a "trademark" in the eyes of his viewers. Even if he offered a great movie, if the ending didn't jolt you- it sucked. Even if the ending was a great "click", because you were deliberately looking for it- you would have considered so many outlandish possibilities that it wouldn't be too out of the ordinary and would seem as a betrayal.
However familiar a certain plot element may seem to you or for me, it is still refreshing to someone else. Of course, some of us saw the Sun-Li twist a mile away. I joked to my husband "I bet I am Revan" during my first playthrough of KOTOR (Dumb luck). But I personally believe that - that particular "plot twist" was not so intergral to my enjoyment of the game that the reveal made the rest of it inconsequential. What is more, there are many people who wouldn't have seen it coming.
Shoofly, subjectivity is a very powerful thing. To me, all the games you claim as greats (with the exception of Ultima) were not truly groundbreaking because the things they offered were at the expense of things I truly value. | |
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ZoneGhost
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From: Ferelden |
Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 01:10AM | |
To be honest I like that plot model. It works well and provided that the scenario is well adapted to it then it is unlikely to fail. | |
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Shoofly
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 01:57AM |
Quote: Shoofly, subjectivity is a very powerful thing. To me, all the games you claim as greats (with the exception of Ultima) were not truly groundbreaking because the things they offered were at the expense of things I truly value.
True! However, I guess my point is that we see Joseph Campbell's hero cycle over and over in Bioware games (and most other RPGs to be fair):
1.Hero is minding his own business and is attacked.
2.In order to protect what he loves he goes on an adventure.
3.He sees lots of strange things on his adventure, none so strange that the villain really is himself (figuratively or literally.)
4.He kills the villain and all is well in the universe until the sequel.
The scenarios change, the basic plot doesn't, neither do the basic mechanics (This one of the reasons Bioware can reuse pretty much the same engine for every one of their games.)
What I think seperates the games I mentioned was that they were much more (especially Ultima IV) a voyage of self discovery. How do I become virtous? Who am I? Where do I fit in this strange world? What previous incarnation of myself fits who I want myself to be?
Perhaps "great" is too big a term. How about "different" or "provocative?"
Why not a game where there isn't a traditional ending?
I'd love to see an ending where the PC learns something, gets something, loses something or does anything other than just killing a nasty to save the world.
There are tons of people in the real world who have profound effect on the world and aren't "saving it" per se.
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"Candy's dandy but liquor's quicker!" - Dorothy Parker | |
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Shoofly
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 02:07AM |
Quote: Posted 12/05/07 01:10 (GMT) by ZoneGhost
To be honest I like that plot model. It works well and provided that the scenario is well adapted to it then it is unlikely to fail.
Definitely true but what makes something great is when someone takes a risk and it pays off.
Take Bioware. If the two founders played it safe, they would have just practiced medicine. They took a shot and made this all possible.
Unfortunately, they have played it very safe plotwise for most of the titles they have made recently.
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imported_beer
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 02:17AM |
Quote: Posted 12/05/07 01:57 (GMT) by Shoofly
True! However, I guess my point is that we see Joseph Campbell's hero cycle over and over in Bioware games (and most other RPGs to be fair):
Perhaps "great" is too big a term. How about "different" or "provocative?"
Why not a game where there isn't a traditional ending?
There are tons of people in the real world who have profound effect on the world and aren't "saving it" per se.
True, and there are many advocates of this position. However, it has already been established that this is not a "chosen one" plot scenario. So you atleast have that. 
I was one of the people a tad miffed by that. Because I am a megalomaniac who gets off on playing a character who was chosen to save the world...because there are so few games that make me feel like a Hero on that scale.
That is where subjectivity comes in. Provocation and originality can come in so many ways. For me, personally, I'd have a plausible world, that deals with provocative themes, but still end up saving the world and lording...um..  I mean...be the Noble Hero who saves the world and asks for nothing in return...
And I'd think a game where I am not fighting an arch nemesis- super villain type would be a nice touch. But ultimately, I enjoy epic, conventional endings where I beat the crap out of some poopy pantsed villain, do something of "global" importance, and live happily ever after...Maybe it is not Bioware which is not taking risks but uncool sorts like me begging them to provide us somewhat of a game experience we love from them- cool characters, the sense of truly being a hero, and the differences coming in the treatment of the world rather than the way they treat my PC? | |
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Twenty Twelve
Joined: 29 Oct 2006 |
Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 02:58AM |
True! Sorry, wanted to get in on the party.
Bioware's plotlines have become incredibly predictable, as have the NPCs' personalities: Aribeth = Bastila = Princess Lian, with a cute dark side flip by first 2 and Lian with her own split good girl/bad-but-not-evil girl personality.
No one is expecting anything revolutionary here (that would be foolish), just maybe something a few degress off center. Maybe the big bad guy doesn't have to be so big or bad. Perhaps there's some ambiguity about his intent, somewhere between black and white. Perhaps it might even be possible to reason with him/her/it and not have to slaughter every witless minion he/she/it throws in your path. | |
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VonChalay
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 03:10AM |
I could do without the opening “home location being attacked” plot beginner as it’s been done so often in so many games including and up to the Witcher that it’s a case of “yeah, whatever, been there, done that when’s the game start” rather than any kind of motivator. With multiple-origins, I don’t think DA will be using this for every one of them however, so that’s good.
IB: Good point about Shyamalan. I’ve always felt that Sixth Sense became his albatross as he got so caught up into trying to outdo his masterwork rather something else that his films have got progressively crapier and crapier. (Even though I love BGII to death, good thing BW didn’t get caught in a similar loop and just kept trying to re-create and outdo their seminal work like most fans demand, eh )
Cheers | |
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David Gaider
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From: Edmonton, AB |
Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 03:31AM |
The plot model you point out isn't any kind of mandate. It is, rather, an observation of the route we tend to take-- for some very good reasons.
I know that it's very easy for the jaded to bemoan how very tired they are of it all, god forbid their delicate sensibilities have to endure yet another epic adventure, right? But we have our way of doing things, and I think it's pretty fair to say we play it pretty safe. We're not going to do something different solely for the sake of being different. That said, nobody said we won't do anything different. Dragon Age will have its distinctive features and innovations that make it Dragon Age.
Even so, I am quite certain some people will see whatever they expect to see. Break any story down far enough, after all, and you'll be left with the Hero's Journey or something that looks like that plot model. Not hard to do.
_________________
Zevran: "Hello my stocky little friend!"
Oghren: "Huh. You got small breasts for a gal."
Zevran: "Ah. This is where we begin the typical dwarven/elven rivalry, is it?"
Oghren: "Nahhh."Edited By David Gaider on 12/05/07 03:35 | |
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flem1
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 04:28AM |
This thread needs an even bigger spoiler tag than the last one.
I like the linear-nonlinear-linear model Bio uses. The problem is when the game is shortened, it's the nonlinear part that gets crunched. So it feels either vestigial (JE) or weirdly linear after all (HotU). | |
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Jecra
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 04:31AM |
Quote: Posted 12/04/07 23:30 (GMT) by Shoofly
As I understand it, there's an official Bioware plot model for their games broken down in the following phases:
I. Short Linear Area, usually used for training/introductory combat (i.e. welcome to the academy, here's how you do this, etc. Oh no we're being attacked!)
II. A plot driver - A cutscene or something that makes the player want to complete the mission ("We have to save our friend", "We have to find out who killed our guardian and who is trying to kill us, etc.)
III. A Large Non Linear Section With Some Mandatory Areas- Although the character is supposedly under time pressure by the plot driver, this section can be played at the players pace and has tons of side quests.
IV. The Surprise - You learn something shocking. "I can't believe I am actually the bad guy I have been tracking from the start!
V. The Showdown - Killing the bad guy, usually twice. Sometimes an initial bad guy is killed before The Surprise and then the main bad guy is killed here.
The thing is that with a heroic crpg most of these piece are mandatory. At the start there isn't much to do, the game and story is just starting so it is linear. In the first chapter the player has to be given a motive to want to complete the main quest, otherwise the story just doesn't make sense.
And now the game is on the way indeed the side quests can start and the player is free to roam the world. This is done, because most players enjoy this freedom and to force a pace on the player (so as to reinforce that there is indeed an urgency) is hard to pull off without annoying a lot of players. However this can be improved on.
Now I like a story with some kind of surprise or twist, if I can predict the complete story than I am tempted to not finish it. And since it is a heroic crpg the player needs to face the bad guy and defeat him.
Seems to me you are basically complaining that Bioware stories have a beginning, middle and end. Which is what a good structured story should have. Beginning the linear and the motivation, middle the free roaming and possibly the surprise/twist and end the showdown. The only two things that I see that can be changed are the middle and the surprise. With the middle it is the free roaming and lack of urgency (which is there for a good reason) and the surprise could be removed, although I expect that the story would suffer from it. | |
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marinerzz
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 05:03AM |
Quote: Posted 12/04/07 23:30 (GMT) by Shoofly
Why not make Dragon Age Bioware's Ultima IV, Fallout or Planescape Torment? Something that gets people to say "Wow! That was different but great!"
And how about an ending where we aren't required to kill someone? It'd be nice to see a game where the solution to a larger problem doesn't just involve the death of the antagonist.
I never really liked Ultima, and I liked most Bioware games better than Fallout or Planescape, so for me anyway, I don't think different would be better.
But I like the idea of not having to kill the main villain. Some kind of option to persuade the villain to give up their evil ways, and maybe even become a good guy would be great! It'd fit my characters too, who prefer to be persuasive instead of combative. | |
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VonChalay
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 05:28AM |
Quote: Posted 12/05/07 03:31 (GMT) by David Gaider
and I think it's pretty fair to say we play it pretty safe.
So as a harder, grittier game, how safe will it be? Even keeping the same plot-turns, will you face them more head-on?
For example, many games, including yours, have the PC being captured (and tortured) as a part of a plot point. Nevertheless, it’s more or less sanitized/sugar-coated by being (a) retro-described (e.g. Irenicus’ dungeon), or (b) being shown only in cutscene or, (c) limiting your “participation” to dialogue only (e.g. Leviathan). The emotional response to this is, once released/escaped, the player will look at his/her quest journal and do what it tells him/her to do (usually, go find/recover you gear or free other people) and proceed on his/her way.
Fable (a game I actually liked a lot) did it differently. **Spoilers** It actually forced you to play through a minimum of two years (game time clock) of imprisonment, which included the humiliation of having to race naked against other prisoners around the courtyard for the guards’ amusement and betting pleasure. As a result, unlike in other games, I was so livid that the moment I found a crummy old stick in a barrel, I didn’t care what my journal said, I came charging out of my cell-block like a bat out of hell in only my Union Jack undies in a no-magic, no-potion and no-save zone intent on beating the living spit out of each and every fully armed and armored guard in the prison before doing anything else whatsoever (which was, incidentally, to recover gear/free people like any other game, heh).
Now I’m not suggesting that I want the PC tortured in DA or anything, just as an example that there are safe and less safe ways to recycle even “old and tired” plot points to make them feel “different” from the last one and the one before that.
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Althernai
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From: St. Genis |
Posted: Wednesday, 05 December 2007 07:43AM |
Quote: Posted 12/04/07 23:30 (GMT) by Shoofly
Why not make Dragon Age Bioware's Ultima IV, Fallout or Planescape Torment?
I have not played Ultima IV, but both Fallout and Planescape: Torment follow more or less the same pattern. Fallout reverses I and II (you get the Plot Driver just before the Introductory Area) and instead of killing a bad guy twice, you have to erase two bad guy bases from existence in one way or another. Planescape: Torment follows the model almost exactly.
That model is so generic that almost any CRPG you can think of fits it. At the very least, DA will be different in that there will be multiple Introductory Areas depending on the character. | |
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