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BioWare Forums  Forum Archives Old Dragon Age Forums Dragon Age (Old) Why is it so difficult to end a game well? [MANY SPOILERS]
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jjkrogs
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 Posted: Saturday, 01 December 2007 05:31PM |
I just finished The Witcher, which was a pretty good game, but again, I was thoroughly disappointed with the ending. And I got to thinking, "how many RPGs have I played where I actually liked the ending?"
Truth is, not many. I thought about it for awhile and determined it's both my fault and the game's fault. Yeah, I'm tough to please, and prefer positive endings-- not "the cave collapses, everyone you ever met dies and your castle gets raided by Fire Widgets who gleefully melt all the stuff you collected."
But I also blame the game for completely disregarding major plot elements during wrap-up. NWN2's ending was a joke, we all know that. MOB's ending was much better, but again, being "trapped" in the City of the Dead was a bit of a stretch, all things considered-- unless of course there will be yet another expansion which allows my escape. The Witcher 'ending' was nothing but an advertisement for a sequel that I question will ever get made. It's been awhile, but I remember being happy with one of the BG endings, along with KOR, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
I'm really enjoying Mass Effect, despite it being a console game (I bought a 360 only for it, and will sell it after I've finished ME) and I hope for the best.
I'm sure it's been discussed here, and I also realize you're never going to please everyone. But what is it that you look for when a game ends? An original idea? A happy ending? At least the slightest mention of key characters? Hope for the future? All of the above?
Is it possible to have a dark story end well, or is it inevitable that sorrow, madness and death result?Edited By David Gaider on 12/04/07 21:59 | 
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MyFinalHeaven
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From: Calgary, AB |
Posted: Saturday, 01 December 2007 06:01PM |
Gah, don't sell your XBox after you're done with ME. What about ME2 and 3?
What I look for in an ending in an RPG is one that, generally, is a result of the choices I've made in the game. ME certainly gave me this. As did ToB.
NWN2, not so much.
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stefan9
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From: Pretoria,south Africa |
Posted: Saturday, 01 December 2007 07:23PM |
On the witcher's ending according to some polish sites they have actually already started working on an expansion. I think with that being the case the ending does make sense.
For many rpg's the endings are poor. I like the BG endings but most other games have had poor endings. MOTB was ok. NWN 2 was very poor . | |
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GreenSoda
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Posted: Saturday, 01 December 2007 10:04PM | |
I think Fallout 2 did a great job with that: final cutscene + a short report on how your avatar changed the world for the better (or worse). ToB was also pretty good. | |
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Althernai
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From: St. Genis |
Posted: Sunday, 02 December 2007 12:10AM |
Quote: Posted 12/01/07 17:31 (GMT) by jjkrogs
MOB's ending was much better, but again, being "trapped" in the City of the Dead was a bit of a stretch, all things considered-- unless of course there will be yet another expansion which allows my escape.
This is one reason. A game may have one possible ending or several. The ones that only have one are criticized because you choices and actions don't matter. The ones that have several get criticized anyway by people who don't like the ending they got. MotB had different endings -- being stuck in the City of the Dead is a direct result of your choices and actions. People who played differently could, for example, get an ending wherein you reunited with surviving family and friends, got married and presumably lived happily ever after. I haven't played The Witcher, but it also advertised multiple endings so I'm guessing it has the same issues.
Quote: Is it possible to have a dark story end well, or is it inevitable that sorrow, madness and death result?
Yes. Example: MotB. | |
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Vaeliorin
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Posted: Sunday, 02 December 2007 01:13AM |
Honestly, I think (and please don't hate me for this) that jRPGs do a lot better job with endings than most western RPGs. This, I think, has a lot to do with the fact that the characters are pre-defined, and assumed to have particular motivations and feelings throughout the game (which admittedly is more like an interactive story than a role-playing game.) I think that's the reason that western RPGs tend to have less than satisfying endings. It's simply that they allow you so much leeway with your character and their motivations that they simply can't tailor an ending that's really appropriate for your character (although the ending of MotB where you stayed in the City of the Dead guarding the wall was almost perfect for my aasimar paladin/favored soul of Kelemvor.)
Is there a way to have good endings in western RPGs? I don't know if it's ever going to be really possible, short of developing actual intelligent AI to play Dungeon Master. Of course, I'd argue that actual role-playing isn't really possible in most western RPGs, given your limited choices in most things. I think the best that can be done is to have an ending that displays how the current story ends (for example, in NWN2 they could have shown a movie of everyone trying to escape/eventually escaping) and then just leave anything after that to your imagination. Trying to give any sort of "and this is what your character did after you defeated the load-bearing BBEG" just doesn't work, as they don't know what your character would do.
So...I guess what I'd say is that it's possible to have a good ending for the current story, but it's not possible to have a good ending for a character, as there's just too much that they don't know about the mindset of the character. | |
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imported_beer
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Joined: 30 Jan 2006
From: Texas |
Posted: Sunday, 02 December 2007 02:31AM |
I think poor endings are a result of many factors
1. Sequelistis: A strange form of ending that seeks to provide "multiple endings" but yet wishes each ending to end with a cliffhanger. I think the intent is to spur discussion as to where the story will head and anticipation for the sequel, but since the story does not feel complete in itself- it can lead to angst. Sequelistis can be done well. I thought Witcher was a better manifestation of sequelistis. KOTOR2, and NWN2 were not.
2. Ann Syndrome: Cynicism over the heroic fables of hero saves everything and the like spurs this. These developers may feel that cynical, dark and philosophical endings that raise more questions than answers may actually lead to connection with people. They believe fantasy should be heightened realistic gloom and no human has altruistic motivations anyway so what is this darn "happily ever after" stuff. In these endings, you discover you are a muffin, the world sucks, and you are doomed, but some players may find these endings "deeply philosopical" and "bittersweet".
3. Nobel Prize: These stories provide a nice, appropriate ending, which seems strangely flat to *some* players. Why? Because that guy who wins the nobel prize for Physics actually wishes in his heart to be the Evil Genius dictator of the world...buwahahaha. This happens because Developers are not psychic and do not have the resources to please all megalomaniacs in this world. The ending that has been most satisfying to us, I mean *them* has been ToB
There may be more. These are the ones I can think of while I eat. | |
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Vaeliorin
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Joined: 29 Jun 2002 |
Posted: Sunday, 02 December 2007 04:46AM |
Quote: Posted 12/02/07 02:31 (GMT) by imported_beer In these endings, you discover you are a muffin, the world sucks, and you are doomed, but some players may find these endings "deeply philosopical" and "bittersweet".
I wish I could find a game where at the end I discovered I was a muffin. That would be awesome. I think I'd have to be a chocolate muffin, though, for it to be bittersweet.
/realizes it's just the swear filter (to steal a technique from imported_beer  ) | |
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jjkrogs
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Posted: Sunday, 02 December 2007 05:25AM |
"Yes. Example: MotB"
Whoa...
As a Paladin, doing what was right to a fault (my personality), I get stuck in the City of the Dead with a God whom my character would NEVER get along with while my secret love, Kaeyln the Dove, loses all her feathers and turns black or something, doomed to wander the outlands forever unfulfilled.
Hello? Sorrow? That was possibly the most depressing (although intriguing) ending I've ever had in an RPG. I spent the entire game oozing goodness, suppressing my craving, etc, and I got arguably the most foreboding ending possible. I've since gone back and read what I needed to do to get the "we all lived happily ever after" stuff, and it really just came down to a mask fragment I never found. Kinda bugs me, actually.
But I digress...Edited By jjkrogs on 12/02/07 05:27 | |
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metatheurgist
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From: Perth, Australia |
Posted: Monday, 03 December 2007 05:20AM |
Quote: Posted 12/02/07 05:25 (GMT) by jjkrogs
As a Paladin, doing what was right to a fault (my personality),
I went for a different interpretation of paladin. A paladin is supposed to fight injustice even if it comes from the lawful authority, so I stuck it to my boss and said "your law sucks". I was prepared to stick my katana in my guts as the ultimate protest to show him how wrong his law was. So I got a good ending.
Isn't a good ending subjective anyway? Some people want happy, some people want sad. As long as we don't get cut off and finished in a rush with bad narration. | |
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Lumenadducere
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Posted: Monday, 03 December 2007 08:30AM |
I think Vaeliorin and imported_beer nailed it on the head. It really is difficult to end according to how the player wishes. Characters are our direct representatives in the game world, and while the game story can end a certain way almost nobody is ever happy with what happens with their character.
I haven't beaten The Witcher yet (my lappy is showing its age with a lag-tastic end boss fight for Ch. 1...I may not beat it for a long time), but I would have hoped that this issue had been fixed since we're controlling a pre-defined character.
The only ending in recent history I've had issues with has been the NWN 2 ending. Everything else, however (including MotB, which I thought was excellent), I've been fine with. Maybe I'm not as attached to my PCs as others are? I dunno. | |
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Gecon
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From: Germany |
Posted: Monday, 03 December 2007 10:29AM |
Meh.
What exactly do you expect at the end of a game except the usual big fight of the big baddy ?
BG1 - usual ending
BG2 - usual ending
BG2 ToB - good ending
PS:T - I never reached ending, lost interest
IWD2 - I never reached the ending, game bugged
NWN1 - usual ending
NWN2 - bad ending (come on, cave collapsing, ga !)
KotoR1 - usual ending (but very unbalanced, with some builds super easy, with others super hard)
KotoR2 - bad ending (incomplete, left many question open)
VtMB - very bad ending (one battle after the other, yawn)
The Witcher - I havent reached ending yet
I havent finished the NWN2 Addon yet, either, but I'm kinda annoyed by the game interface so I dont know if I really want to finish it, so meh.
Quote: Posted 12/03/07 05:20 (GMT) by metatheurgist
A paladin is supposed [...]
Grr.
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We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep. - Prospero, The Tempest, by ShakespeareEdited By Gecon on 12/03/07 10:37 | |
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David Gaider
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Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton, AB |
Posted: Monday, 03 December 2007 05:26PM |
Well, let me say this: the more linear the story, the better you're likely going to be able to wrap it up neatly. Which is to say if you know exactly who your protaganist is, and you know exactly what your plot is going to encompass and when your climax is going to occur, it's going to be a bit easier to bring it all together to make what will likely be at the very least an appropriate ending (though naturally tastes vary and it may not be an ending you like, much).
Add in such complications as a variable protaganist or an open-ended plot and things become much more difficult. You can never quite anticipate what the player's story was (meaning what they experienced as their personal narrative throughout the game) so wrapping it up in a way that will be satisfying specifically for them becomes more challenging.
I do like the Fallout method (if you want to call it that) -- we used it in Throne of Bhaal and in Hordes of the Underdark, as I recall. The thing there is that it's not so much an ending for the player's character as it is an ending for every other character and/or place in the game, right? And since I know exactly what those things are about for certain, I can give them an ending that is appropriate.
It certainly doesn't help that, in most cases, we tend to work on the ending last. Which is to say we usually end up working on the game's ending in a period where we might not have time to do it justice. I would say that maybe we should do it first (or earlier) but then I think of all the times when we have had to radically change things in the story due to outside pressures (like an axed cutscene or some change to the engine) and I wonder how viable that kind of plan would be.
You'd think that the needs of the story would dictate everything else in the game-- but no. Alas, it's a bit more of a dance (or a frantic scrabble, as the case may be) and that complicates something that is already not that easy to do.
It's something that we're constantly trying to work on, anyhow.
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Nighteye2
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Posted: Monday, 03 December 2007 05:36PM |
Quote: Posted 12/03/07 17:26 (GMT) by David Gaider
It certainly doesn't help that, in most cases, we tend to work on the ending last. Which is to say we usually end up working on the game's ending in a period where we might not have time to do it justice. I would say that maybe we should do it first (or earlier) but then I think of all the times when we have had to radically change things in the story due to outside pressures (like an axed cutscene or some change to the engine) and I wonder how viable that kind of plan would be.
You'd think that the needs of the story would dictate everything else in the game-- but no. Alas, it's a bit more of a dance (or a frantic scrabble, as the case may be) and that complicates something that is already not that easy to do.
It's something that we're constantly trying to work on, anyhow.
Well, you can do it near the end, and make sure you reserve enough time for it to do it properly. At some point late in development you have to basically freeze the story against major changes anyway, to move on to the stage of finalising the game (also including beta-testing) and that would be a good time to finish up the ending, without needing to worry about further changes to the rest of the story.
As you describe it, the issue with endings is no more than simple time management. If need be, delay the game another week if that gives a better ending.
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senduran
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Posted: Monday, 03 December 2007 06:16PM |
Quote: Posted 12/03/07 17:36 (GMT) by Nighteye2
As you describe it, the issue with endings is no more than simple time management. If need be, delay the game another week if that gives a better ending.
One would suppose that if it just needed an extra week, it would get an extra week. I figure the reason that some games seem to get weaker and weaker toward the end is that their budgeting didn't anticipate how long the early parts of the game would take to make/ how expensive that would be. So they already blew 90% of time/budget on levels 1-5, so levels 6-10 get rushed. So, rather than needing an extra week, to do the final 5 levels properly you'd need to almost triple the initially planned development time. That's no small thing: most developers would be forced to accept the failure and release what they can.
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