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BioWare Forums  Forum Archives Old Dragon Age Forums Dragon Age (Old) Realistic numbers (or: foes vs toughness) and the Tardis effect
Dragon Age (Old)
Squire
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 Posted: Sunday, 21 October 2007 01:10PM |
One thing that really stood out in NWN2 - I know you didn't make it but I'm using it as an extreme example - was that half the population of Neverwinter seemed to be in Moire's gang. In one warehouse, there were about twenty rooms, each one with about a dozen people just standing there. I'm quite sure that I've committed genocide in that building, and caused a population crisis in Neverwinter - at least that's what would really happen if I'd killed that many people. in Baldur's Gate, the numbers were more believable (well they felt more believable anyway) - can they be more believable again?
This raises the question of whether it'll be too easy - the solution is simple. make them stronger. it's a well known Hollywood law that the individual toughness of each opponent is inverseley proportional to the number of opponents (i.e. the more opponents you fight, the easier each one is to defeat). Gang of fifty - each one dies of a paper cut. One on one - the foe takes half an hour to defeat. it's a simple Hollywood formula. 
Secondly, there are quite often, in RPGs, more random civilians than there are buildings. Cities in these games typically have residential districts in which the houses can be counted on one hand, yet somehow they manage a population of several hundred? now I'm not suggesting you create every single house, but could it at least be inferred that there are residential areas that the PC doesn't travel to because there is absolutely no need whatsoever? BG2 did this nicely, with its world map representation of Athkatla, and only certain areas were highlighted (i.e. worth visiting).
finally - and I'm sure this has been mentioned before - in Neverwinter 1 and 2, buildings were about 50 square feet from the outside, yet step inside and suddenly you're in a megatropolis the size of New York. could the size of the buildings be increased, perhaps, to more accurately reflect the size of the internal area?
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So at the start (well not the start), Harry either dies or has sex (or neither), leaving not Sarah (unless it's Sarah) to fall in love, or not in love, with a shark, squid, a pebble, a policeman, or none or all of the above. | 
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Elof Valantor
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Posted: Sunday, 21 October 2007 02:51PM |
With your last point about outside size vs inside size I would say I would also like to see them portrayed more accurately. However... due to limitations such as area size (for loads of reasons like computer performance) that means your hollywood rule would play out. Either have more buildings with smaller rooms, or larger rooms and less houses. Smaller rooms aren't very good for satisfying curiosity, therefore we get large interiors, but the developers don't want to put only 2 houses in an area, so they break the universe and use the Tardis effect.
It's a damn shame and it won't be changing anytime soon I think (for reasons above).
I blame all the poor people who don't have 64TB of RAM in their PCs.
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**Has begun poking EA to make sure they leave Bioware alone**
"... well, then you get programmers throwing themselves on their swords in protest." - David Gaider.
I guess I better not work for Bioware after all... what kind of swords?Edited By Elof Valantor on 10/21/07 14:51 | |
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Squire
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Posted: Sunday, 21 October 2007 04:01PM |
Quote: Posted 10/21/07 14:51 (GMT) by Elof Valantor
However... due to limitations such as area size (for loads of reasons like computer performance) that means your hollywood rule would play out.
actually the Hollywood rule was to do with enemies being weaker when in greater numbers - the house/internal size was the Tardis effect. 
Quote: ...Either have more buildings with smaller rooms, or larger rooms and less houses. Smaller rooms aren't very good for satisfying curiosity, therefore we get large interiors, but the developers don't want to put only 2 houses in an area...
they could find a balance...make them just small enough, and just big enough. they don't have to measure up pixel for pixel. but in NWN2 it was really obvious (less so in the BG games).
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So at the start (well not the start), Harry either dies or has sex (or neither), leaving not Sarah (unless it's Sarah) to fall in love, or not in love, with a shark, squid, a pebble, a policeman, or none or all of the above. | |
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Elof Valantor
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Posted: Sunday, 21 October 2007 05:49PM |
Quote: Posted 10/21/07 16:01 (GMT) by Squire actually the Hollywood rule was to do with enemies being weaker when in greater numbers - the house/internal size was the Tardis effect.
I know, I was saying the rule applies to interior/exterior too if developers choose to not follow the tardis effect
Quote:
they could find a balance...make them just small enough, and just big enough. they don't have to measure up pixel for pixel. but in NWN2 it was really obvious (less so in the BG games).
Hopefully they can find a balance yeah. And BG did do a great job.
_________________
**Has begun poking EA to make sure they leave Bioware alone**
"... well, then you get programmers throwing themselves on their swords in protest." - David Gaider.
I guess I better not work for Bioware after all... what kind of swords? | |
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Planetus
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Posted: Sunday, 21 October 2007 07:06PM |
I think the big thing is that there's a significant technology difference between BG and NWN. You could have every NPC in the gameX2 squeezed into one screen in BG2 and I don't think you'd have any lag. On the other hand, in NWN, 10 NPCs on-screen means a lot of work for your computer, and more only makes it worse. Similarly for buildings and trees. Additionally, I imagine it was a completely different process to make the settings in BG from what it was in NWN. Painted, 2d backdrops or graphically generated 3d ones?
As for the number of enemies, I'm all for smaller numbers of toughers underlings. It would also add to the realism (GASP! NOT REALISM!!). I mean, if the boss is so hard I have to use every trick in the book and still barely beat him, why's he bothering with a bunch of stupid goblins or henchmen I can kill in 1-3 hits? I mean, the pay for that many people must be huge, even if they are useless. Stay with economy, please. 5 'little' baddies that can give me a challenge are much better than 50 that can't. Traditional 'horde' races and groups (orcs, goblins, zombies, etc.) should be the only ones that employ that strategy.
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Quote: Posted 06/14/07 12:00 (GMT) by Zelphi
You don't get killed in DnD, someone does damage that results in Death.
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Woolfsmck
Joined: 29 May 2007 |
Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 01:09AM |
Quote: Posted 10/21/07 13:10 (GMT) by Squire
One thing that really stood out in NWN2 - I know you didn't make it but I'm using it as an extreme example - was that half the population of Neverwinter seemed to be in Moire's gang. In one warehouse, there were about twenty rooms, each one with about a dozen people just standing there. I'm quite sure that I've committed genocide in that building, and caused a population crisis in Neverwinter - at least that's what would really happen if I'd killed that many people. in Baldur's Gate, the numbers were more believable (well they felt more believable anyway) - can they be more believable again?
I seem to recall that BG2 had fewer humanoids period, and a lot more critters,creatures,spirits, ect.
I get your point about numbers tho. Probably would be more believable to have to fight (or join) a criminal crew of 20 or less, following your fomula of few tougher individuals.
Quote: Secondly, there are quite often, in RPGs, more random civilians than there are buildings. Cities in these games typically have residential districts in which the houses can be counted on one hand, yet somehow they manage a population of several hundred? now I'm not suggesting you create every single house, but could it at least be inferred that there are residential areas that the PC doesn't travel to because there is absolutely no need whatsoever? BG2 did this nicely, with its world map representation of Athkatla, and only certain areas were highlighted (i.e. worth visiting).
Realistic geography would be nice, especially with todays technology and graphics..
Quote: finally - and I'm sure this has been mentioned before - in Neverwinter 1 and 2, buildings were about 50 square feet from the outside, yet step inside and suddenly you're in a megatropolis the size of New York. could the size of the buildings be increased, perhaps, to more accurately reflect the size of the internal area?
I beleive the advent of physics and its appication will likely resolve this issue.(we hope)
Plausability and not realistic accuracy is the desigers intent as I have been told.
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kobebryant
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Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 01:56AM |
It all depends on how well Bioware can optimize their engine.
RPG makers have historically been horrendously bad at writing engines. Just look at the performance numbers. Games running the Unreal 3 engine are getting insane performance with unbelievable number of light sources, physics calculations, and texture detail.
Then you get to your standard SP RPG, which takes an 8800 series card to brute force it to around ~25-30 fps, and graphically the game looks like it was made 5 years ago.
The better optimized the engine, the more realistic the rpg can be. Unfortunately you run out of zots, especially with guys not quite experienced with tweaking engines like Epic or id or Valve are, and so by the time it took the programmers to actually optimize the engine they'd be out of time to actually implement all these great things.
So we end up having an unoptimized engine along with the tardis effect since neither can be avoided given the constraints  | |
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Taedrun
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Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 02:36AM |
The thing you have to remember about those companies and those games (Unreal, Doom, and Half Life respectively) though, is that they are basically glorified tech demos. Don't get me wrong, they are great games and I enjoy them. But they were games built to show off the power and versatility of their engines. Epic, id, et al. make a large amount of revenue from the licensing of their engines out to other companies, so they need to make sure they are powerful, flexible, and extendable. They made their engines for use with many games, genres, and purposes.
Most RPG games aren't made on top of a new engine developed for the latest and greatest features, or that feature extraordinary throughput/frame rates. You are quite correct in that they usually don't make the best use of the engine, or optimize as much as they could, but they don't always use the best engines either. | |
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Planetus
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Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 03:19AM |
Ah, but I'm sure we all want to avoid a repeat of NWN2. I don't care how long the game takes to make, PLEASE make sure it won't lag down to 5 fps if there are more than 3 light sources in the room.
Also, on a detail note, you really don't have to animate every flame on every candle in the candelabra AND give everything shadows for each one. Obsidian make a terrible mistake when they decided that much detail was worth an investment of any kind.
_________________
Quote: Posted 06/14/07 12:00 (GMT) by Zelphi
You don't get killed in DnD, someone does damage that results in Death.
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kobebryant
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Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 03:35AM |
Lol, seriously. My 8800 GTS OCed goes down to 15fps at times in NWN2 with maybe 10-12 enemies on the screen casting spells.
These are the kind of framerates I get when I have hundreds and hundreds of units on the screen in World in Conflict, with nukes going off in the side and jets and helicopters whizzing around. And I can tell you every unit in that game looks better than any of those 10-12 models in NWN2. Even Oblivion runs better as a single player RPG, and that game is processing so much more stuff it's not even funny.Edited By kobebryant on 10/22/07 03:38 | |
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Woolfsmck
Joined: 29 May 2007 |
Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 03:36AM |
Quote: Posted 10/22/07 03:19 (GMT) by Planetus
Ah, but I'm sure we all want to avoid a repeat of NWN2. I don't care how long the game takes to make, PLEASE make sure it won't lag down to 5 fps if there are more than 3 light sources in the room.
Also, on a detail note, you really don't have to animate every flame on every candle in the candelabra AND give everything shadows for each one. Obsidian make a terrible mistake when they decided that much detail was worth an investment of any kind.
I find/found the detail in NWN2 to be great eye candy.
But having played games with more interactive environments(Morrowind/Oblivion), its lost to most observers. What I mean is that since you could only open designated doors/chests/cabnets, a lot of the detail goes ignored and unappreciated since the only part of the environment that matters is what you can use.
So....making an awsomely detailed world will get little notice unless the player can use it or be affected by it somehow. Gameplay is the key.....Detail is only the background and need not be spectacular only complimentary.
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Squire
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Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 08:32AM |
Quote: Posted 10/22/07 03:36 (GMT) by Woolfsmck
...But having played games with more interactive environments(Morrowind/Oblivion), its lost to most observers. What I mean is that since you could only open designated doors/chests/cabnets, a lot of the detail goes ignored and unappreciated since the only part of the environment that matters is what you can use.
oh absolutely! such intricate detail and amazing graphics may make us go "ooh, this looks nice!" for a few minutes, but then it becomes secondary.
I'm not suggesting we go back to 2d sprites - things still need to look decent, and while some veterans may claim to not care at all about graphics, the majority of players would at least like it to look fairly modern. but we don't need to spend shed-loads of processor power mapping the smokey haze caused by the characters breathing in cold air.
_________________
So at the start (well not the start), Harry either dies or has sex (or neither), leaving not Sarah (unless it's Sarah) to fall in love, or not in love, with a shark, squid, a pebble, a policeman, or none or all of the above. | |
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DeathnightF1
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Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 01:55PM |
Quote: Posted 10/21/07 19:06 (GMT) by Planetus
5 'little' baddies that can give me a challenge are much better than 50 that can't..
Do you remember in BG2 after you imerge into waukeen's promenade. The pub owned by the mouthy woman. On the 2nd floor thier is a group of mercenaries who unless you backdown completly will fight you?
They have the same amount of people as me, maybe one or two more. They are at least as well equipped if not better equiped than me. I am unsure as to thier level though, i assume pretty high. OR for that matter, the group of mercenaries in the sewers by the secret illithiad dungeon.
Those fights are the best, when you fight someone decked out as well, if not slightly better than you. You may have to re-load a few times, but it gives you a much greater sense of achievement than fireballing a few dozen goblins. Also id rather carry around 10,000 GPs worth of enchanted weapons than 10,000 gps worth of leather jerkins and short swords.
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Michael FurlongEdited By DeathnightF1 on 10/22/07 13:57 | |
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Woolfsmck
Joined: 29 May 2007 |
Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 02:03PM |
Quote: Posted 10/22/07 08:32 (GMT) by Squire
oh absolutely! such intricate detail and amazing graphics may make us go "ooh, this looks nice!" for a few minutes, but then it becomes secondary.
I'm not suggesting we go back to 2d sprites - things still need to look decent, and while some veterans may claim to not care at all about graphics, the majority of players would at least like it to look fairly modern. but we don't need to spend shed-loads of processor power mapping the smokey haze caused by the characters breathing in cold air.
Hopefully DA devs will get the message and detail the improtant things that the player will focus on, and cut down on backgound/secondary environmental detail to allow a better performing game.
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Planetus
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Posted: Monday, 22 October 2007 02:03PM |
Also, it does a lot to mitigate your feeling of superiority and isolation in the world. I mean, if my party is the only one I ever see with anything near my levels or equipment, I start feeling really special and superior really fast. I start to forget that other 'people' exist and just think of them as pitiful loot and xp. If every baddie and most of the goodies have adventurer parties of similar power in their employ, then not so much.
_________________
Quote: Posted 06/14/07 12:00 (GMT) by Zelphi
You don't get killed in DnD, someone does damage that results in Death.
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