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BioWare Forums  Forum Archives Old Dragon Age Forums Dragon Age (Old) Poke 'em in the eye! (Archery)
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Planetus
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 Posted: Friday, 28 September 2007 10:02PM |
In many games, especially recent ones, ranged combat has been a laughable 'option'. They seem to either only include it as an afterthought or, in an attempt not to make it too powerful, nerf it to hell and back. In the D&D games, archery has always seemed an afterthought, something useful for mages or thieves to do while they aren't casting or thieving, but nothing any serious fighter would use. In Lionheart (that forgotten SPECIAL system in a fantasy setting) it was actually decent, except that the screen was always so zoomed in you had no range, and you had to click on a moving target to shoot at them. Over and over again, by intention, coincidence, or accident, ranged combat has fallen by the wayside as a last ditch option for non-combat classes.
In reality, good archers were lethal. Their range gave them the ability to attack without worry for their own safety (most of the time) while the power necessary to gain that range made them effective against all but the strongest of armors.
Now I know that in a game you can't accurately represent archers, as that would largely make them untouchable, but could they at least be done so that it is a viable alternative to constantly crying 'Once more into the breach, dear friends!'?
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Quote: Posted 06/14/07 12:00 (GMT) by Zelphi
You don't get killed in DnD, someone does damage that results in Death.
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senduran
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From: Cambridge, England |
Posted: Friday, 28 September 2007 10:55PM |
Quote: Posted 09/28/07 22:02 (GMT) by Planetus
In many games, especially recent ones, ranged combat has been a laughable 'option'.
One of the very few things I really liked about Oblivion was going 'hunting' with a bow & arrow. It was supremely satisfying shooting a moving deer at extreme distance, having to judge the arc of the arrow's travel. If you also had to compensate for wind that would have been awesome.
Quote: Now I know that in a game you can't accurately represent archers, as that would largely make them untouchable
I'm not sure I really follow. What makes you think archers are untouchable? They're exceptionally weak without range and protection. In most games this is either explitely modelled in the game rules or comes out naturally: you don't use a bow & arrow when someone is swiping a sword at your head.
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Lord_Shadowleaf
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 06:06AM |
Quote: Posted 09/28/07 22:55 (GMT) by senduran Quote: Now I know that in a game you can't accurately represent archers, as that would largely make them untouchable
I'm not sure I really follow. What makes you think archers are untouchable? They're exceptionally weak without range and protection. In most games this is either explitely modelled in the game rules or comes out naturally: you don't use a bow & arrow when someone is swiping a sword at your head.
The melee fighter wouldn't be able to get close to the archer in the first place. One well aimed arrow can kill or disable someone. | |
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Radisshu
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 06:35AM |
Quote: Posted 09/28/07 22:55 (GMT) by senduran Quote: Posted 09/28/07 22:02 (GMT) by Planetus
In many games, especially recent ones, ranged combat has been a laughable 'option'.
One of the very few things I really liked about Oblivion was going 'hunting' with a bow & arrow. It was supremely satisfying shooting a moving deer at extreme distance, having to judge the arc of the arrow's travel. If you also had to compensate for wind that would have been awesome.
I seem to recall bows being quite useless in Morrowind. I did like them in Oblivion, though. Especially sneaking around some bandit-infested ruin, taking them out one by one. | |
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Willpower-in-Japan
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 07:01AM |
Quote: Posted 09/29/07 06:06 (GMT) by Lord_Shadowleaf Quote: Posted 09/28/07 22:55 (GMT) by senduran Quote: Now I know that in a game you can't accurately represent archers, as that would largely make them untouchable
I'm not sure I really follow. What makes you think archers are untouchable? They're exceptionally weak without range and protection. In most games this is either explitely modelled in the game rules or comes out naturally: you don't use a bow & arrow when someone is swiping a sword at your head.
The melee fighter wouldn't be able to get close to the archer in the first place. One well aimed arrow can kill or disable someone.
But that all depends on the archer knowing that an enemy is nearby, and that the enemy is planning to attack, and all of this takes place while the enemy is within sightline and still far enough away for the bow to be useful.
Not as handy when in an urban environment, or in heavy brush. Hard to get a good shot through stands of willows and such, they do tend to deflect the shot enough to hinder accuracy. | |
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WhiZard
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 08:06AM |
Quote: Posted 09/29/07 06:06 (GMT) by Lord_Shadowleaf
The melee fighter wouldn't be able to get close to the archer in the first place. One well aimed arrow can kill or disable someone.
This is always a major problem. In a game you want your character invulnerable enough that he doesn't have to worry about an arrow coming out of nowhere and disabling him at any random time in the game, and yet archers should be tough enough to stand their own at least man for man in the event of repelling a charge. Further, an NPC archer with your stats should do approximately as well as you in a ranged one on one.Edited By WhiZard on 09/29/07 08:09 | |
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Edelwolf
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 09:27AM |
Well ofcourse bows and arrows aren't going to kill a character outright.
In a fantasy computer game heros block sword thrusts on their eyeballs and take 200 lbs warhammers on their spinal cords for a few HPs of damage.
Same goes for bows. | |
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Elhanan
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 10:50AM |
Quote: Posted 09/29/07 09:27 (GMT) by Edelwolf
Well ofcourse bows and arrows aren't going to kill a character outright.
In a fantasy computer game heros block sword thrusts on their eyeballs and take 200 lbs warhammers on their spinal cords for a few HPs of damage.
Same goes for bows.
DA being a CRPG, you are probably correct. However, if the Health system were to allow for the possibility that a well placed shot or blow could be critical and/or fatal, this might be kinda cool.
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Elhanan the Ancient One
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Edelwolf
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 11:20AM |
Quote: Posted 09/29/07 10:50 (GMT) by Elhanan
DA being a CRPG, you are probably correct. However, if the Health system were to allow for the possibility that a well placed shot or blow could be critical and/or fatal, this might be kinda cool.
I agree a well placed shot should be lethal. Stuff like getting cleaved in half with a greatsword should also kill.
To make that happen some developer should have the guts to replace the tired old HP mechanic with something adequate. | |
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Elhanan
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 01:06PM |
Quote: Posted 09/29/07 11:20 (GMT) by Edelwolf
I agree a well placed shot should be lethal. Stuff like getting cleaved in half with a greatsword should also kill.
To make that happen some developer should have the guts to replace the tired old HP mechanic with something adequate.
Not always. If the system has massive HP, then it becomes difficult to implement. But if HP are kept at lower numbers, then a crit hit could be enough to cause grave injury, or possibly kill. For myself, I prefer to have a safety net in place for victims to avoid instant death (ie; ST of some kind, possible deflection, etc).
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Elhanan the Ancient One
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Planetus
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 01:48PM |
That's another issue, enemies have frequently been able to utilize the true range of a weapon or spell when the PC can't because it is larger than the player's screen. I realize this is less of an issue in a 3-d system, but it is still something of an issue.
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Quote: Posted 06/14/07 12:00 (GMT) by Zelphi
You don't get killed in DnD, someone does damage that results in Death.
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EliahPhos
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 02:01PM |
Agreed. Archery is something that I've always been a big fan of, but almost no game did well(except, of course, the forementioned Oblivion - the only two aspects I liked about the game above Morrowind were the Stealth improvement and Arhcery, since it had physics).
However, unless you make the game into Deer Hunter, I don't see how Archery would be much different in DA than in NWN. Archery, irl, was used for hunting, gorilla tactics, and fortress defense. Frankly, except for gorilla tactics(which would be awkward without some new stealth system), archery wouldn't be useful in your typical RPG battle.
Most RPGs seem to forget, also, that Archery requires a LOT of strength. Anyone who's used a bow can tell that doing it more than two or three times requires endurance and strength to continue. Crossbows are a different matter, obviously.
Basically, to have Archery as a viable, practical option for combat, you'd need to specifically use it in tactical considerations. That has always been the use, irl. Hindering, harassing, and overall reducing the enemy instead of outright killing.
*Edit: outright killing the enemy. As in an entire group. An arrow can certainly kill a person. But you're not going to take out a bunch of bandits, since they'll turn you into mincemeat after 1-2 kills.
Or you could make archers like Legolas and give 'em two swords and uncanny speed.Edited By EliahPhos on 09/29/07 14:05 | |
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pmaura
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 04:09PM |
well in regards to hitpoints I have never really considered hitpoints the amount of damage you take.
I consider them a luck and a skill pool. In the sense that in order to averta massive death blow you expend 20 hit points etc.
JA2 and silent storm I are games that got ranged combat right I think, but they were also turn based rpgs. Even in the end of those games only armor saved you and head shot would always kill you or lower your intellgence. | |
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FlatCat
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Posted: Saturday, 29 September 2007 11:14PM |
One issue, that has been touched on, is engine limitation. Depending upon how the game is designed you may not even be able to see that far in the first place. A ranged weapon's key advantage, range, is lost. 3-D games in fact may be worse than older ones because they stress high visuals which are easier to manage in boxlike environments and real time with pause which tend to be character camera driven and playable even without pausing which means no scrolling several screens away to select a target to shoot at.
A second issue is that archery fans, some in particular anyway, tend to be both elitist and yet easily mollified. It is not an uncommon sight to see them elevating you-know-what/voledmort over sling, crossbow, and especially the gun to point of spewing such frothy invective they wind up alienating the people they try to convince. So naturally devs balance said weapon against the entire slew of melee and magic alternatives and produce something that's underpowered (especially if you were to go by the angry "experts") and goes hilariously unnoticed. All because it's "better" than the "n00b" weapons, but they don't realize it isn't GOOD so much as less mediocre than the similar alternatives.
JA2 and Silent Storm don't have his problem because people are more willing to accept multiple varieties of guns as having viability and therefore they are balanced as such. Pistols are light and can switch targets with less penalty to action points, submachine guns are less accurate with high rate of fire, rifles are powerful but slower, etc. Also range is more of a factor as enemies can be spotted from a ways away and fired on for multiple turns. And everything was significantly more lethal as they were both balanced to have killable and easily replaced party members. Gaming has gotten less hardcore than it use to be and overarching crafted narrative has taken precedence over user created narrative.
I am somewhat amused by both the Lionheart and Oblivion comments. Lionheart was generally horribly designed. The only reason archery was so viable was because melee combat was a death trap and enemies were stupid and easily kited around. Oblivion fanboys praised Bethesdas decision to CUT throwing weapons and crossbows as being both more 1337 and heroic. And yet they were Oblivious to everyone and their mama in Oblivion wielding a bow with ease compromising their supposed 1337ness (because everyone does it) and generally the accepted way to use bows effectively is to make use of sneak attack and poison which is what they pooped on xbows for being, slow and unheroic. Heck, even the manner of sneaking with a bow in Oblivion resembles a crossbow since it's held laterally. Moddifying this was one of the first crossbow mods.
:facepalm: | |
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Vaeliorin
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Posted: Sunday, 30 September 2007 04:19AM |
Quote: Posted 09/29/07 14:01 (GMT) by EliahPhos
Most RPGs seem to forget, also, that Archery requires a LOT of strength. Anyone who's used a bow can tell that doing it more than two or three times requires endurance and strength to continue. Crossbows are a different matter, obviously.
Um...I don't know if you've ever shot archery to any extent, but I use to shoot competitively when I was younger. When I first started, I use to go out and shoot 300 or more arrows at a time over the course of a couple hours. So no, I don't know that archery necessarily requires a "LOT" of strength. It does obviously require some, but I've never really considered myself super strong, yet I use to shoot for hours at a time.
Crossbows, however, I would consider a different matter. The average crossbow has such a high draw weight (at least modern crossbows...I'm not sure what types of draw weights older crossbows use to have) that unless you use a crank you do need to be really strong to draw them. I don't know that I've ever seen a modern crossbow under 100 pound draw weight, whereas modern bows can range anywhere from 35 (for an adult, anyway) to over 100 pounds. Granted, the estimated draw weight on an English longbow was somewhere around 110-120 pounds, according to what I've read, but I don't think we're really talking about those types of bows for our characters (unless you really want to be able to shoot about half a mile). | |
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