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BioWare Forums  Forum Archives Old Dragon Age Forums Dragon Age (Old) Differences between male and female NPCs II
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Nighteye2
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 Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 07:28PM |
Continuing from the previous thread, I would open the new thread with this example:
Quote: Quote: Posted 09/05/07 03:34 (GMT) by David Gaider PC: "So which way should we turn?" Female party member: "Well if you don't know I'm certainly not going to tell you." PC: "What's that supposed to mean?" FPM: "Well the last intersection we came to I said we should turn LEFT. And you led us RIGHT." PC: "Yeah, so? We found that chest with that magical armor you liked so much, didn't we?" FPM: "You just don't get it, do you?!" PC: "I get that you look mighty sweet in that armor, baby." FPM: "Pig!" *she slaps him and suddenly they begin kissing passionately* ...yeah, it kinda just writes itself, don't it? 
While it is a bit based on negative stereotypes and certainly should not be generalised to all women, reading this I thought it would actually make a very interesting romance to play. I don't think a romance like this has ever been written in any Bioware game before, nor in any other game that I can remember. It would be original, and the absurdity of the exaggerations would make it unpredictable with lots of comedic potential. (However, a single one like this would be enough - don't make them all act like this)
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David Gaider
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Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton, AB |
Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 07:41PM |
I'm not sure that would actually work well as an interactive romance. As one that plays out in front of you, sure -- but in that instance I can control the interactions and script the kind of narrative build up that it would require. Otherwise I've found that it's a very fine line between having a romance where there is tension at the beginning and having a character that is potentially annoying or unlikeable.
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Zevran: "Hello my stocky little friend!"
Oghren: "Huh. You got small breasts for a gal."
Zevran: "Ah. This is where we begin the typical dwarven/elven rivalry, is it?"
Oghren: "Nahhh." | |
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AlanC9
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 07:52PM | |
Is having a character who's "potentially annoying or unlikeable" necessarily a bad thing? Not every character should appeal to every player. | |
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Chokladglass
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 07:56PM |
Yeah, do one good and two annoying, so I don't have trouble choosing.  I agree. That example of excellent Gaider writing would work out best as a romance to watch and not take part in.
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It may be a touch unladylike, but I'm gonna slit your throat I amEdited By Chokladglass on 09/05/07 19:58 | |
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David Gaider
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From: Edmonton, AB |
Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 08:00PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 19:52 (GMT) by AlanC9
Is having a character who's "potentially annoying or unlikeable" necessarily a bad thing? Not every character should appeal to every player.
No, of course not... and that's not going to be the case even if you try. But you do want a romance to be at least sympathetic -- having them be hostile or combative off the bat is a big gamble, since the chances of that hostility turning to passion is difficult to control.
Having initially envisioned the Carth and Bastila romances as a sort of "battle of the sexes", and seeing the difficulty of engineering that when you can't control the context that the player experiences, I know whereof I speak.
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Zevran: "Hello my stocky little friend!"
Oghren: "Huh. You got small breasts for a gal."
Zevran: "Ah. This is where we begin the typical dwarven/elven rivalry, is it?"
Oghren: "Nahhh." | |
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Nighteye2
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 08:06PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 20:00 (GMT) by David Gaider
Having initially envisioned the Carth and Bastila romances as a sort of "battle of the sexes", and seeing the difficulty of engineering that when you can't control the context that the player experiences, I know whereof I speak.
But, on the other hand, you now have experience - you know what mistakes you made back then, how that romance was received, and thus what elements to change or improve. If you were to try the battle again, I'm sure it would come out better, and possibly with less difficulty than the last time. 
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David Gaider
Lead Writer
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton, AB |
Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 08:55PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 20:06 (GMT) by Nighteye2 But, on the other hand, you now have experience - you know what mistakes you made back then, how that romance was received, and thus what elements to change or improve. If you were to try the battle again, I'm sure it would come out better, and possibly with less difficulty than the last time.
I'm sure that idea sounds nice in theory, but it simply doesn't work well in practice when the romance in question must be interactive as opposed to scripted. Either way, it's not someplace I'd care to start again.
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Zevran: "Hello my stocky little friend!"
Oghren: "Huh. You got small breasts for a gal."
Zevran: "Ah. This is where we begin the typical dwarven/elven rivalry, is it?"
Oghren: "Nahhh."Edited By David Gaider on 09/05/07 20:56 | |
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imported_beer
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 09:07PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 20:55 (GMT) by David Gaider
Either way, it's not someplace I'd care to start again.
That is fine. What is the difference between the male romanceable by females NPC ) and the female romanceable by males NPC - apart from their genders?
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David Gaider
Lead Writer
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton, AB |
Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 09:23PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 21:07 (GMT) by imported_beer
That is fine. What is the difference between the male romanceable by females NPC ) and the female romanceable by males NPC - apart from their genders?
You mean other than them being completely different personalities? The thing I really don't get is that nobody would ever write a character by deciding how to play off the gender dynamic -- well, at least *I* sure wouldn't! If the best I could say about a character is that they are very male or female (or that they have long hair, to go back to an argument someone made that long hair is a roleplaying option) then there probably wasn't much of an idea there to begin with.
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Zevran: "Hello my stocky little friend!"
Oghren: "Huh. You got small breasts for a gal."
Zevran: "Ah. This is where we begin the typical dwarven/elven rivalry, is it?"
Oghren: "Nahhh." | |
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LdyShayna
Joined: 18 Oct 2001
From: Colorado |
Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 09:28PM |
I think she might have been trying to be sneaky and get more information on the personalities.
*curses over the failure*
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imported_beer
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 09:29PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 21:23 (GMT) by David Gaider
You mean other than them being completely different personalities? The thing I really don't get is that nobody would ever write a character by deciding how to play off the gender dynamic -- well, at least *I* sure wouldn't! .
I was just trying to get some info on the male romanceable character, that is all. Not asking if and how gender based dynamics work in romance. LOoking for a scoop. Some nuggets.
I have no expectations from your team as far as gender dynamics are concerned. You guys are a witty, smart, ginormously talented bunch and I am not worried. | |
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senduran
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 09:53PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 21:23 (GMT) by David Gaider Quote: Posted 09/05/07 21:07 (GMT) by imported_beer
That is fine. What is the difference between the male romanceable by females NPC ) and the female romanceable by males NPC - apart from their genders?
You mean other than them being completely different personalities? The thing I really don't get is that nobody would ever write a character by deciding how to play off the gender dynamic -- well, at least *I* sure wouldn't! If the best I could say about a character is that they are very male or female (or that they have long hair, to go back to an argument someone made that long hair is a roleplaying option) then there probably wasn't much of an idea there to begin with.
That was me, and I claimed it was an important part of the character. You may not base the entire character around that thing, you may not start with a gender trait as the first idea for the character, but a gender trait may none the less be important to complete the character. (*)
Since the hair thread got locked before you could answer, I'll ask this one again:
Did it never come up that you wrote or wanted to write a certain character but when the concept artist came back with an example image where the character had game-renderable short hair (or long hair tied up), you thought "No, I imagined her with longer hair"? Or are character concepts more generic than that? You wouldn't care if the artist came back with a bald character?
* and actually, as a player and not a writer, for the character concept of my own PCs which I may come up with in about 5 seconds before starting the game, 'pretty girl with long hair' may be the first thing that pops into my head, followed by whatever makes sense given the character creation options. If I find I can't make a pretty girl with long hair then I'll just make do. But for example I'll not end up playing as a female a) seductress of any kind, b) charismatic leader surrounded by faithful male followers who secretly love me, c) honest, graceful, gentle believer in X, d) carer of the down-trodden, e) .... Basically, I won't play any of a host of possible female archetypes because none of them would 'fit' (in my mind) if the character only had short hair. The more understandable example would be "I wouldn't play a strong male fighter if the male character models all looked like 2 pound weaklings", or "I wouldn't play a calm, serious thinker if all the hair styles were mohawks".
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Dragon Age Central: FAQ & Information: http://www.dragonagecentral.com/Edited By senduran on 09/05/07 22:05 | |
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Cogitation
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 10:24PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 21:53 (GMT) by senduran
If I find I can't make a pretty girl with long hair then I'll just make do. But for example I'll not end up playing as a female a) seductress of any kind, b) charismatic leader surrounded by faithful male followers who secretly love me, c) honest, graceful, gentle believer in X, d) carer of the down-trodden, e) .... Basically, I won't play any of a host of possible female archetypes because none of them would 'fit' (in my mind) if the character only had short hair.
A woman with short hair couldn't be "honest, graceful, gentle believer in X" ?? They couldn't care for the down-trodden???
Quote:
The more understandable example would be "I wouldn't play a strong male fighter if the male character models all looked like 2 pound weaklings", or "I wouldn't play a calm, serious thinker if all the hair styles were mohawks".
A woman with short hair is akin to a scrawny, weak fighter??
Would you play a female fighter if to be an effective fighter build you had to have high strength? That is, the game mechanics allow you to, just like they do with those scrawny looking models for a strong fighter... On the other hand, I'm guessing you wouldn't have any trouble with a solemn male carer for the down-trodden or a male mage, or made charismatic leader for that matter, regardless of what their hair was like... | |
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senduran
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 10:45PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 22:24 (GMT) by Cogitation Quote: Posted 09/05/07 21:53 (GMT) by senduran
If I find I can't make a pretty girl with long hair then I'll just make do. But for example I'll not end up playing as a female a) seductress of any kind, b) charismatic leader surrounded by faithful male followers who secretly love me, c) honest, graceful, gentle believer in X, d) carer of the down-trodden, e) .... Basically, I won't play any of a host of possible female archetypes because none of them would 'fit' (in my mind) if the character only had short hair.
A woman with short hair couldn't be "honest, graceful, gentle believer in X" ?? They couldn't care for the down-trodden???
I'm not stating those things as a categorical. Objectively I know it is possible (equally likely!) for someone with short hair to be those things. But I don't have that association. It doesn't 'fit'. Looks are tied to percieved character, as someone was kind enough to provide scientific evidence for in the hair thread.
Quote: Quote:
The more understandable example would be "I wouldn't play a strong male fighter if the male character models all looked like 2 pound weaklings", or "I wouldn't play a calm, serious thinker if all the hair styles were mohawks".
A woman with short hair is akin to a scrawny, weak fighter??
I didn't say that. I gave a completely separate example of how the look of a character affects perceived abilities and personality.
Quote: Would you play a female fighter if to be an effective fighter build you had to have high strength?
If I don't see solid muscle mass, probably not. If I was going to play a female fighter and all the models were waifish, I'd play a dexterty-based one (fast and accurate, not powerful).
Quote: On the other hand, I'm guessing you wouldn't have any trouble with a solemn male carer for the down-trodden or a male mage, or made charismatic leader for that matter, regardless of what their hair was like...
I already gave the example of not playing many male archetypes if the hairstyle was a mohawk, so I don't know why you'd guess that.
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Dragon Age Central: FAQ & Information: http://www.dragonagecentral.com/Edited By senduran on 09/05/07 22:59 | |
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imported_beer
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Posted: Wednesday, 05 September 2007 10:50PM |
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 21:53 (GMT) by senduran
Did it never come up that you wrote or wanted to write a certain character but when the concept artist came back with an example image where the character had game-renderable short hair (or long hair tied up), you thought "No, I imagined her with longer hair"? .
I can identify with this because the second I think of a character I imagine their appearance to the T, I mean E. It is not always congruent with her/his personality as conventionally imagined, but I can understand what you mean by "seeing" your character in your head when you create them.
Only in my case, if I thought of the uber chick with supreme self confidence, I have often imaged her bald. That is just a personal thing going on because a woman who does not need to grow her hair in a world where long hair is prized for its beauty has some seriously strong self image. On the other hand, if I wished to imagine a vain, princess type, conservative girl, I'd imagine her with hair so long, it is an inconvenience.
I am not disagreeing with you. I am just saying that I tend to be visual when I imagine characters, and tend to "see" them a certain way so I can absolutely respect the fact that when you imagine a character, you will imagine her physical characteristics as well. | |
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