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BioWare Forums  Forum Archives Old Dragon Age Forums Dragon Age (Old) Magic System and Magic in the DA
Dragon Age (Old)
I Love Baldur's Gate II
Game Owner
 NWN 2
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
From: DA |
 Posted: Wednesday, 30 May 2007 04:26PM |
Many months ago it was stated by the devs that the mechanical workings of magic had not been finalized at that point, though it was clear that some form of mana system would be used. We then stormed in with masses of suggestions with respect to how magic could be implemented. I suggested several methods, such as a large mana pool but recharging it only through special events, or limiting spells through casting time more than through mana, and several others and other posters posted their own interesting suggestions. Unfortunately, I am not proficient with the search function on this site, so I cannot find these suggestions for repeated perusal or linking to this thread.
In any case, I am wondering, now that a substantial period of time has passed, has the magic system been finalized yet? Have any of the suggestions we offered proved useful for inspiration? Is the nature of the mechanics of the magic system going to reflect and reinforce the flavour of magic in the DA and if so how? | 
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Stanley Woo
QA Ninja
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: The BioWare Compound |
Posted: Wednesday, 30 May 2007 05:59PM |
Quote: Posted 05/30/07 16:26 (GMT) by I Love Baldur's Gate II
In any case, I am wondering, now that a substantial period of time has passed, has the magic system been finalized yet?
Maaaaybe.
Quote: Have any of the suggestions we offered proved useful for inspiration?
Maaaaaaaaaybe.
Quote: Is the nature of the mechanics of the magic system going to reflect and reinforce the flavour of magic in the DA and if so how?
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe.
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loppan torkel
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
From: Sverige |
Posted: Wednesday, 30 May 2007 06:04PM |
Quote: Posted 05/30/07 17:59 (GMT) by Stanley Woo Quote: Posted 05/30/07 16:26 (GMT) by I Love Baldur's Gate II
In any case, I am wondering, now that a substantial period of time has passed, has the magic system been finalized yet?
Maaaaybe. Quote: Have any of the suggestions we offered proved useful for inspiration?
Maaaaaaaaaybe. Quote: Is the nature of the mechanics of the magic system going to reflect and reinforce the flavour of magic in the DA and if so how?
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe.
Sweet, now we're getting somewhere. | |
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DeathnightF1
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
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Joined: 31 Jan 2004
From: London |
Posted: Wednesday, 30 May 2007 07:36PM |
Hah, now this is the time for wild speculation, using the "maybe"s as authentication.
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Michael Furlong | |
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loppan torkel
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
From: Sverige |
Posted: Wednesday, 30 May 2007 08:01PM |
I can't say that I've been to fond of manasystems in the past when compared to DnD spellsystem. I thought Diablo II was a lot of fun, but I believe DA won't be as lighthearted in the gameplay. What I don't wan't it turn out to be is some sort of autospellshooter, but have the strategic feel of the DnD system. Since there won't be manapotions where you instantly regain your mana, I don't think they're going in the autospellshooter direction either.
Perhaps the cost of mana will depend only on the time it takes to cast the spell, advanced takes longer and will cost more mana. And maybe you decide how long time the spells will take to cast, making them more powerful the longer you hold them.
I hope not... it seems more trouble than it's worth. I think I'd want set spells in the game, and the mana just works as a pool of spellpoints that you refill when you rest. It allows for flexibility and strategy, not so much innovation though.
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Caladorn
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Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA |
Posted: Wednesday, 30 May 2007 09:34PM |
Pretty much the only game I've ever played in which I enjoyed a pure caster-type character as much as or more than a melee fighter or hybrid is WoW.
I think what I prefer about Blizzard's vision of class balance over systems like DnD is that, in DnD, it's the fighters that get to make a meaningful contribution every round, even if their options are more limited, while casters command a great deal of flexibility and power at the cost of their round-to-round role being one of resource management. Do I cast a spell now or just fire a crossbow and wait for a more opportune/desperate moment? At least 3rd edition gave them those crossbows, which was a pretty major improvement on this system at low levels (when this feature of the DnD magic system is most problematic), not to mention sorcerers who go a little further in the other direction (trading some flexibility for more spells/day).
What Blizzard does, instead, is to find the right balance between casting time/mana cost requirements for spells so that, with good management (still a small part of playing a caster), you can pretty much always being doing what your class does, rather than something else. And that without being too overpowered as a result.
The latter system is preferable in a CRPG, I think, where casters' overall options are more limited anyway, so you don't gain as much in flexibility and control by sacrificing round-to-round usefulness. | |
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Gecon
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Joined: 01 Aug 2002
From: Germany |
Posted: Thursday, 31 May 2007 12:00AM |
Quote: Posted 05/30/07 20:01 (GMT) by loppan torkel
I thought Diablo II was a lot of fun,
Quote: Posted 05/30/07 21:34 (GMT) by Caladorn
Pretty much the only game I've ever played in which I enjoyed a pure caster-type character [...] is WoW.
This is really strange to me, what do these people want at the Bioware board ?
I thought we do Roleplaying games here... not Actiongames. That, in the case of WoW, call themselves "MMORPG", but actually have their world almost completely instanced. Which is just Diablo 2 with new graphics to me ... or rather not so new graphics.
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We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep. - Prospero, The Tempest, by Shakespeare | |
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Caladorn
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Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA |
Posted: Thursday, 31 May 2007 05:12AM | |
I can think of no relevant sense in which WoW isn't a (computer) role-playing game. It's not story-based, like Bioware's games, but that doesn't imply that you couldn't make a story-based game using WoW-style game mechanics. In any case, the more important point is that Blizzard does a good job, in both Diablo and WoW, of making casters fun to play, because they can actually cast spells as effectively and consistently as melee classes can do their thing (smacking monsters with sticks and so forth). | |
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Klakka
Game Owner
 NWN
SW: KotOR Xbox
Jade Empire
Joined: 16 May 2007
From: Outside Seattle |
Posted: Thursday, 31 May 2007 08:10AM |
Quote: Posted 05/30/07 17:59 (GMT) by Stanley Woo
*snip*
Maaaaybe.
*snip*
Maaaaaaaaaybe.
*snip*
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe.
If I add all of the 'a's together, divide by the number of 'y's, add the 'b's and multiply by the 'm's, throw in wild specutlation, and extrapolate, then from the QA Ninja's direct and succicnt answers the magic system will be based on and designed around...  WILD SPECULATION! | |
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Randalish
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Joined: 12 Oct 2004 |
Posted: Thursday, 31 May 2007 09:01AM |
Caladorn: A valid point. However, there are also problems with this solution. The main one is that it makes magic far, far less exotic and interesting.
In Diablo, you spam spells. You cast the same handful over and over. How many spells does a character know in Diablo or Diablo 2? A dozen? Twenty? And how many are there in NWN or BG2? Two hundred? Three hundred if you count priest spells? And those spells in BG2 or NWN are, in my opinion, much cooler than those in Diablo or Diablo 2.
I much prefer a system where casting a spell feels special and can swing the balance of a battle. Does that result in the caster character doing nothing much of the time? Yes. But in a party based game like DA or Baldur's Gate, that doesn't really matter. Not like in NWN or Diablo where you only control one character and therefore can do little when you're out of spells. (so, in NWN the wizard ends up resting all the time so he can spam spells, and becomes overpowered as a result.)
Of course, this is mainly an issue of personal preference. Plus, one could easily have a middle ground, a system where a weak attack spell or two can basically be cast all day with no problems for the wizard, but the majority of the wizard's spells will cost him a large percentage of his mana, or perhaps even his health or something. We'll see what Bioware does. | |
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Gecon
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Joined: 01 Aug 2002
From: Germany |
Posted: Thursday, 31 May 2007 09:43AM |
Dunno, I find the idea that a wizard casts one real spell once per day or so, while the rest of the time he's spamming some lower attack spells, the most utterly boring concept possible. Even diablo had more possibilities than that.
I see a wizard as a infinite pool of possibilities. Magic, unlike fighting or thievery, is a potentially unlimited concept. The number of spells you can invent is only limited by your own phantasy and creativity.
For example, its very easily possible to create a wizard that has no attack or defense spell as such at all, but would still be very powerful to overpowered:
- He can fool his opponents with an illusion into falling from a cliff.
- He can explore the opponent with divination spells, then poison the food the guy will be eating.
- He can teleport into the center of the stronghold when his opponent is asleep, then finishing him off with a weapon while hes defenseless.
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We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep. - Prospero, The Tempest, by Shakespeare | |
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Lightzy
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN 2
Joined: 14 Aug 2002 |
Posted: Thursday, 31 May 2007 01:08PM |
I much liked arcanums magic system.
the spell schools themselves were unbalanced but the system is real nice.
instead of mana you use up your fatigue when casting spells
That way the magician can develop in several directions -
1) a high constitution mage that can cast a lot of spells repeatedly
2) the high willpower/int mage who can cast a few high level spells
3) the 'balanced' mage
And thats before even considering the spell schools
It also tied in very well to the combat system --
Instead of having a weird 'concentration' check or skill, if you got hit, it drained your fatigue, rendering you somewhat weaker and not as cast-ready, and thus big heavy weapons/blunt weapons were better for dealing with mages.
It just works better.
Instead of trying to incorporate a new stat called 'mana' and try to tie it in to the game in all kinds of ways, you just use the ever ready fatigue stat which is already tied in to combat, and make the whole system flexible, robust and requiring some strategic planning.
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the-expatriate
Game Owner
 NWN
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
Mass Effect
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
From: Halifax NS, Canada |
Posted: Thursday, 31 May 2007 05:39PM |
I like this idea. In most fantasy literature, any spellcasting really doesn't affect that character except to tire them. This is harder to implement in gaming, BUT if there was, say, a health bar and a stamina bar only, and casting spells drains stamina (as do things like prolonged running, etc. though not as much) then it makes more sense, plus it works well.
If the health bar becomes zero, then you die. If the stamina bar reaches zero, then you pass out. Also, to me, instead of having 'concentration' checks, it would make sense to limit your stamina to only be able to reach as high as your current health is. That way, if you're hit, your total fatigue also is taken down.
In this case, constitution (or equivilent) would determine both health and fatigue. And if that became a problem, it could always be broken into two separate stats... Resiliency and Endurance, for example.
The possibilities are endless, really.
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Caladorn
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Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA |
Posted: Thursday, 31 May 2007 06:04PM |
Quote: Posted 05/31/07 09:43 (GMT) by Gecon
For example, its very easily possible to create a wizard that has no attack or defense spell as such at all, but would still be very powerful to overpowered:
- He can fool his opponents with an illusion into falling from a cliff.
- He can explore the opponent with divination spells, then poison the food the guy will be eating.
- He can teleport into the center of the stronghold when his opponent is asleep, then finishing him off with a weapon while hes defenseless.
The trouble is, what you're describing is possible in PnP, but all of these uses are very hard to do in a CRPG, except as once-off quest solutions (rather than repeatable spells), because they need to be planned for, and it's very hard to take teleport spells, say, into account in all situations. You need to either severely limit the use of teleport spells (as a kind of recall or something, which WoW does, btw), or you need to make it clear to the player that the spell will only be usable whenever the designers have scripted it, and not otherwise--not a very satisfying or elegant solution.
Like it or not, spells in a CRPG have to do something clearly defined by the basic game mechanics--buffing a stat, immobilizing a mob, damaging something, unlocking a door, or whatever. So you just don't have room for the kind of "this spell is what you make of it" spells that exist in PnP; hence the severe nerfing of divination and illusion in all DnD-based computer games. Creative uses of spells have to be scripted on a case-by-case basis, which is a ton of work.
That's not to say it can't be done to some extent. Spells can be used in dialog in non-standard ways in addition to their standard uses, and I'd like to see more of this. But all spells still need a standard use, and that has to be something that isn't just a special case, but which the game engine allows for over and over.
I don't deny the legitimacy of the caster-paradigm that PnP DnD employs, or that it can be fun in that kind of game. But in DnD cRPGS (especially those with real time combat), sadly, casters' role is relegated, mainly, to buffing the melee combatants, who proceed to destroy everything in sight while the mage is still trying to target her fireball in a useful spot. That's no fun. | |
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Caladorn
Game Owner
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Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA |
Posted: Thursday, 31 May 2007 06:20PM |
Quote: Posted 05/31/07 09:01 (GMT) by Randalish
I much prefer a system where casting a spell feels special and can swing the balance of a battle. Does that result in the caster character doing nothing much of the time? Yes. But in a party based game like DA or Baldur's Gate, that doesn't really matter. Not like in NWN or Diablo where you only control one character and therefore can do little when you're out of spells.
It's true that a DnD-style wizard is only even possible in a party based game. Solo, DnD wizards have too hard a time, at least at low-mid levels. The trouble I still have is that this makes it useless to have a caster-heavy party; a melee-heavy party will pretty much always be more effective, since you only really need spells for buffs and special occasions. So even in a party-based game I always end up playing a melee character, because the NPC casters are more than enough.
Well, that's not entirely true--in NWN2 I played a wizard, and combat was really needlessly difficult until I finally multi-classed him into an Eldritch Knight. Now he hardly ever casts spells other than buffs. It would be pointless; in almost all situations he is so much more effective swinging that axe. It's nice to have the option. But it doesn't feel much like playing a magic-user. (Indeed, my party is now more effective than it would be because I don't need a dedicated arcane spellcaster.)
I will admit, though, that it might be possible to do a DnD-style system in DA without making casters as useless as DnD cRPGs do. The failure of DnD's spellcasting system to translate well to the computer doesn't show that no similar system could work.Edited By Caladorn on 05/31/07 18:21 | |
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