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BioWare Forums  Forum Archives Old Dragon Age Forums Dragon Age (Old) Exploration
Dragon Age (Old)
SicariusIV
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Joined: 10 Mar 2007 |
 Posted: Saturday, 10 March 2007 08:10PM |
I don't know whether this topic has been discussed before as pertains to Dragon Age, since I'm new here. But it's something that I find lacking in recent RPGs, namely, the story vs. exploration factor.
I remember playing Baldur's Gate for the first time. After my mentor got killed by Sarevok, it was just me and Imoen vs. the world, that was very huge and intimidating. You traveled on the road and were attacked by meaningless foes (ie. bandits, kobolds, whatever) and every single encounter was a new event. You would pick up their "regular" loot and sell it off to the first merchant you meet and think you're one hot-shot for having survived that encounter at level 1. And you had to search and look around for things - there were so many areas that had no particular significance to the game, they were just there and had their own "insignificant" quests to complete.
That kind of gameplay reminds me of an essay written by Umberto Eco about Dumas' the Count of Monte Cristo, and how the novel wouldn't be as good without all the added fluff which gives the actual important story elements more breadth, width, and significance. I must say it was the same for Baldur's Gate. I thought the story itself was made a lot better by all the "insignificant" adventuring that went on in between story-driven quests. And reaching the city of Baldur's Gate was quite a rush, because somehow you got the feeling that after all these countless hours of adventuring through the countryside, the "story" has started for good, and you're finally getting somewhere.
Don't get me wrong, I love Jade Empire and KOTOR just as much as anyone on this forum, but in those games, EVERY single encounter, dialogue, or whatnot has some significance to the game. The result is that the whole game feels more like walking through a corridor, as much story-wise as environment-wise. It's like going through a novel, punctuated by fights. Of course, it's not quite like a novel because you still have control over your actions and can choose to be evil. But I finished all of JE:SE, including all the quests and subquests (excluding the Zither of Discord since I was open palm) within 9 hours my first time through. Compared to the 40-50 hours of gameplay I got from the original Baldur,s Gate the first time through, it was slightly disappointing.
The extreme opposite is not always better either. Morrowind and Oblivion are both great games, but they are quite low on story elements, so that everything you do in the game seems to have equal significance. In Oblvion, this is PARTICULARLY frustrating - I hated playing a decidedly evil character and having to experience the main quest exactly the same way any other dude would. I wanted to help the bad red-robed dawn assassins or however they were called. I was, at that moment in the main quest, an assassin in good standing at the Dark Brotherhood, with an infamy of 60 and a few paid-off bounties on my head, and not really someone that Sean Bean-voiced character would entrust the fate of the world to.
So anyway, what I'm wondering is whether Dragon Age would be more like JE or KOTOR, or more like BG, when it comes to exploring the world around. I think it would be great if it did, but I'm just another gamer with an opinion. Because in terms of balancing a great storyline with free-roaming exploration, the original Baldur's Gate is still king in my opinion.
Sorry for this long-winded post... hopefully some will read the whole thing.  | 
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Attalus
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From: Athkatla, with Aribeth |
Posted: Saturday, 10 March 2007 09:16PM |
We don't know, either. but from some of the Devs comments, it's gonna be a lot more like Jade Empire than BG.
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Aedan mac Gabran
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Posted: Saturday, 10 March 2007 09:26PM |
Quote: Posted 03/10/07 21:16 (GMT) by Attalus
We don't know, either. but from some of the Devs comments, it's gonna be a lot more like Jade Empire than BG.
I don't know, the impression I've got is that DA is trying to have more exploration. I don't think it's going to be as free as BG, but I don't think it's too much to hope for something with more exploration than KOTOR, which is itself a lot less linear than Jade. | |
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Attalus
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Joined: 22 Jun 2002
From: Athkatla, with Aribeth |
Posted: Saturday, 10 March 2007 09:38PM |
I suspect that there will be some exploration, yes, but not on the scale (BG) that the OP refers to. Can't say for sure, though. Trying to remember some post DG made about it, but, there, it's gone...
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"I may have been the last of you before, but just let me show you schuttas some things that the Exile taught me to do with a lightsaber." -Brianna the Handmaiden's final speech to her sisters | |
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FourtyThree
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 |
Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 07:02AM |
Quote: Posted 03/10/07 20:10 (GMT) by SicariusIV
<>
So anyway, what I'm wondering is whether Dragon Age would be more like JE or KOTOR, or more like BG, when it comes to exploring the world around. I think it would be great if it did, but I'm just another gamer with an opinion. Because in terms of balancing a great storyline with free-roaming exploration, the original Baldur's Gate is still king in my opinion.
not sure if this is helpful since BG1 seems to be your favourite, but David (DA's lead writer) mentioned somewhere that they're going for a BG2 Chapter 2 feel/gaming style. Since this is the favourite part of my favourite game i nearly kind of fainted when i read that. | |
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SicariusIV
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Joined: 10 Mar 2007 |
Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 07:20AM |
I like both BG1 and 2 equally, for different reasons.
Chapter 2 in BG2 was the best to me as well. So much to do in that one... In fact that Chapter 2 sort of creates the narrative space I was talking about earlier. It makes the quest of chasing Irenicus later on that much better. DA going that route would be good news, I think
And I hope I didn't give the impression I was criticizing Jade Empire. I loved it, every single second (of those 9 hours). And I'll probably have another go at it on the other side of the fence soon
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Zalashkolina
Joined: 23 May 2006 |
Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 10:20AM |
I agree with you on most things, though I still think BG2 was much better then BG1 in the same way you described it - the exploration and the side quests, since BG1 was too big and open and the story a bit sucked for me.
I think the new generation 3d games are less open and take less time to complete because of the improved graphics and that's just sucks! I really want another experience like BG2 and as far as I'm concern DA can be made in the old infinity engine... but since it won't be, I just hope the developers will be able to make it ad least feel a bit like the BG series (if not a lot). 
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Attalus
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From: Athkatla, with Aribeth |
Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 05:11PM |
Quote: Posted 03/11/07 07:20 (GMT) by SicariusIV
I like both BG1 and 2 equally, for different reasons.
Chapter 2 in BG2 was the best to me as well. So much to do in that one... In fact that Chapter 2 sort of creates the narrative space I was talking about earlier. It makes the quest of chasing Irenicus later on that much better. DA going that route would be good news, I think
LOL, Chapter 2 of BG2 is the shortest of the game for me, since I just do the DeArnise and Thieves' Guild Quests, nd the Fallen Paladins, since you can't get it in Chapter 5, and ho for Spellhold to rescue Immie. I hope that DA will have similar choices of when and where to order quests.
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"I may have been the last of you before, but just let me show you schuttas some things that the Exile taught me to do with a lightsaber." -Brianna the Handmaiden's final speech to her sisters | |
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SicariusIV
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Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 05:34PM |
Well, I always end up doing all those major quests in Chapter 2... it just seems like the natural thing to do
BG2,s narrative was just overall better, for sure. the NPCs were better and bioware really refined their formula with that one.
but still... i find that the first BG had a charm to it that you can't find in any of the other Bioware games.
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Tsuga C
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Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 06:07PM |
Yes, this has been brought up repeatedly and the official answer has always been about the same. DA will allow more illusary freedom than their recent titles, but not so much as BGI and certainly not as much as the "sandbox" MMOPRGs currently on the market. BioWare is in the business of creating story-driven CRPGs and that's not about to change any time soon.
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kormesios
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Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 06:24PM |
I could post this in a new thread, but I think it fits here:
I just finished Jade Empire, and I agree with the general sentiment that it, and other recent games (NWN2, the KoTORs) didn't have the same "vast" feeling as BG2.
The problem is, the structure was actually pretty similar--a main quest, optional subquests, and in between the two you had a reason to visit every place you went.
Can anyone articulate the difference? Since many of us hope DA recaptures that feel. I can think of three things, but none are satisfactory.
(1) BG2 had quests located in many different places, instead of mostly Neverwinter or the Imperial City. Which doesn't seem enough, the other games certainly had many settings. Does the simple act of clicking on a big map make the world feel "open"?
(2) It just had more and better content. Which isn't really a lesson that can be applied elsewhere.
(3) I've become jaded and cynical in my old age, and see formulas and triggered dialogue checks instead of a good plot line. | |
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Attalus
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From: Athkatla, with Aribeth |
Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 06:36PM |
I think that BG2, and, especially BG, didn't have a path that one had to follow in order to get from point A to Point B; well, except in a few places, like the Druid's Grove and Yaga-Shura's Enclave. You would just click, and your party would go to the designatted location. There was even a spell, "Clairvoyance," I think, wher you could dispell the Fog of War, and all would be clear. I had Nalia cast that every time we went to a new area. Very useful, especially in confusing places like the above and the Underdark.
_________________
"I may have been the last of you before, but just let me show you schuttas some things that the Exile taught me to do with a lightsaber." -Brianna the Handmaiden's final speech to her sisters | |
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SicariusIV
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Joined: 10 Mar 2007 |
Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 06:51PM |
I think the problem is that NWN, KOTOR, and JE are too focused. The only part in these games that captures the "feel" that we're talking about is when you arrive in the Imperial City in Jade Empire - but the problem is that the subquests are easily and quickly over with in that city, plus there are only 4-5 areas of note in there. Also these quests are always self-contained, meaning they don't require you to travel around back to Tien's landing or to other random wilderness areas, castles, or whatnot.
The beauty of Chapter 2 in BG2 is how unfocused it is. There's 5-6 major quests to do in any order, and many, many more minor quests as well. Some of them link to areas outside the main city. Also, these quests basically have nothing to do with the main plotline (Irenicus). Athkatla is a bit of a sandbox.
BG1 was the most unfocused of the bunch. It simply presents you with a near-sandbox world and leaves it open to you to discover why your mentor got attacked and killed by Sarevok, why bounty hunters are chasing you, why you're having these weird dreams, etc.
I think another difference is purely a level design issue. Compare the BGs with KOTOR for example - nowhere in BGs (except the dungeon-style places, of course) do you feel like you're just walking along a corridor. In KOTOR, it's 100% corridor gameplay - even when you're in a "vast" Wookiee forest or a Dantooine plain. JE is more of the same in that regard, although I appreciated at least that the cities weren't arranged as corridors with the same recurring elements (in KOTOR cities all had the requisite tavern, weapon shop, droid shop, etc, and they were all pretty much built as corridors). NWN was a little different in that regard, but the game was centered on dungeon-crawling style quests, which are also removed from the BG "feel", since a lot of the gameplay in those games was not dungeon-based.
In repsonse to one of the above posts, I don't believe "story-driven" gameplay has to come at the expanse of "sandbox" gameplay. I think the BGs prove you can have at least some of both. How good would Oblivion have been if the devs had bothered to write a cool story, ridden with twists and turns and ethical choices for the character to make, instead of just being a typical "chosen one, save the world" story?
My personal favorite in terms of combining these two gameplay types in a RPG is Deus Ex. I haven't seen it mentioned at all on these forums (I'm new, of course) but I just think Warren Spector is a genius for making that game. There is an essay he wrote about the development of RPGs on Gamasutra that sheds lot of insight as to what he was thinking about when making that game (entitled "Remodeling RPGs for the New Millenium"). His whole point is about providing compelling story-driven gameplay (providing a reason to get from A to B) while letting the player choose *how* to get there (so the player has to use his own ingeniuity to get past the game's obstacles). This is how the first BGs worked, pretty much, with an open level design that lets you explore a great deal.
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Randalish
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Posted: Sunday, 11 March 2007 10:28PM | |
We've discussed the corridor style in Kotor elsewhere, but I'll just say I suspect its implementation had as much or more to do with technical limitations of the 3D engine and possibly the x-box platform than with any choices made in game design. | |
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Planetus
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Posted: Monday, 12 March 2007 02:38PM |
I'm hoping the dev team has learned from other games, as well as advances in technology. For those of you who have played Final Fantasy 12, that game has very much the free-exploring feel of BG1, with tons of areas all over the place and, while you have to go through most of them at some point or another for the plot, almost all of them are open from the beginning, and MUCH larger than required by the story line. On top of that, the entire game is 3D. They actually handle the stretching vistas, which makes for an absolutely incredible graphic experience. One of the features I'm particularly impressed with is that they actually link the different areas. This means that when you're about to travel from Area Z, Zone A to Area A, Zone B you can actually see some of Area A, Zone B just beyond the zone boundaries, still rendered in 3D. Basically, it means they took all their 3D areas and stuck them next to eachother so that as you cross from one to the other, you can see elements of both, even though there's still a loading screen between them and everything.
Combined with a very nice usage of natural barriers to prevent this from requiring the ENTIRE next area to be visible from the ENTIRE last (in most areas at least), it comes off as a very vitalized world that shouldn't take nearly as much processing power as Morrowind's ever-going horizon.
The other thing I hope they learn is that it isn't good to rush players when there's so much to explore. Some rushing is ok, but make sure you leave a time where there's nothing important going on for a little while and the player can just wander if they want, or skip it and continue the plot. BG2 Chapter 2 left me with a very rushed feeling, and I didn't like it. | |
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