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BioWare Forums  Forum Archives Old Dragon Age Forums Dragon Age (Old) Hordes of Suicidal Irrelevancies
Dragon Age (Old)
The UPHO
Joined: 05 Feb 2007 |
 Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 04:34PM |
I recently wrote an article about CRPG’s aimed at the Scandinavian RPG and LARP community (posted below) which led to a long conversation with an old friend (working in the games industry) about Dragon Age and CRPG’s in general. Mostly we discussed what we have named the “Hordes of Suicidal Irrelevancies”, or “Hosis”, referring to all those annoying little critters with a death-wish that keep popping up everywhere in game areas not populated by civilized races. To illustrate this typical flaw in game design, I’ll begin with a couple of flashbacks to previous games:
BGII: The party ventures down into the sewers to investigate the “Cult of the Eyeless”. The player spends at least an hour repeating the same well-known “move-fight-loot-heal” pattern, watching his party scything through some 50 suicidal kobolds and other familiar “not-even-remotely-threatening” creatures that insists on attacking on sight. Then, finally (who could imagine that amount of easy action to be packed into 300 yards of sewers!), the party arrives at the cult HQ and the player may continue with the quest.
KotOR: The party is heads out on the fields of Dantooine (for example in a quest to find the raiding Mandalorians or to explore the crystal cave), the player eager to find out more. But oh no! First it’s the “Kath-Hound Pinball Mayhem” quest! Before the surface of Dantooine may be safely traversed, the player must guide his bloodthirsty party running amok and force-jumping like crazed frogs between endless groups of Kath-Hounds, all seemingly ecstatic at the prospect of a swift end to their dull Hosi existences. Some forty minutes later the party has arrived at their destination, leaving the fields littered with enough meat to feed the entire population of Dantooine for a decade. (I kinda wonder how the people of Dantooine survived even thinking about the fields before the hero PC comes along to play pinball machine…)
Please excuse my poor ability to resist the temptation of sarcasms…
My point being, that while quest-vital and/or epic battles really may add excitement, challenge and immersion, repetitive slaughter of vastly inferior foes may eventually downgrade or even destroy an otherwise brilliant game. These skirmishes with the Hosis are especially tiresome if they are placed in your way without any reason (except to provide a boring fight and a minute amount of XP and loot). Why do the Hosis manage to invade game after game? Have they put a charm spell on level designers, urging them to think “Can’t have an empty space here! I need to put in some Hosis…” or what? Don’t you think that the audience is ready for an RPG with less “volume fighting” in general and Hosis in particular?
Here are two brilliant quotes from DA writer Mary Kirby regarding realism, which I think applies perfectly to the Hosis issue:
“Have you ever read a Realist novel? They're massive. Realist authors thought that if they just described every minute detail of life, they could re-create life in a believable fictional form. This is a fascinating but impossible task. First because an author can't possibly remember all the details, and second because that many details are completely and utterly boring.”
“I tend to want the details to be either: A) meaningful or b)interesting and in either case, well-implemented. I know what the requirements are for real life; it's like playing the tutorial again on my 87th playthrough of a game. I know how the combat system works, already, just get me to the game!”
Exactly my point! Now the strange thing is that nobody at Bioware seems to question whether slaying Skeleton #72 is fun or perhaps, maybe like playing tutorial again and again. In addition, it’s like reading a Realist novel. I mean, as poor suicidal Skeleton #72 is hardly in the story because he adds such a marvelous amount of drama or even a challenging fight, the only reason he’s been put there is because some developer thought “Ok, this is a graveyard and there’s an evil Lich Lord in one of the crypts, then we need lots of undead here, otherwise it wouldn’t be realistic”. Or perhaps the reason is to make the player exercise their knowledge of the combat system for the 753rd time? If there is another reason, game developers seriously need to get more knowledgeable about dramaturgy. And stop reading those completely and utterly boring Realist novels!
Please keep, or even expand on, the big fights, the really tough and/or important ones, but please try and weed out the tiresome same-same brainless hacking at not very challenging enemies. As a thumb rule, a certain type of enemy loses its charm when you’ve whacked three of its cousins already. And no, if zombie #23-31 rises out of graves to attack, it still doesn’t help getting the fighting much sexier.
I can see the problem in developing terms, a lot of fighting needs to be replaced with other activities. And yes, I know this would be one of the greatest shifts of focus Bioware has ever done - removing several hours playtime of a standard RPG component in favor of something perhaps more expensive and demanding. (Not to mention that the poor guys that designed and animated three different types of Goblin Hosis, meant to be copy-pasted one hundred times into “goblinoid” areas, may only get maybe six little darlings into the game.) I suggest you put your resources into dialogue and NPC interaction to fill out the void left by the brainless hacking. I’m fairly certain a lot of your fans and future buyers of DA agree with me, and to those that love the Hosis, I can only say: “Choose ANY other RPG and you’ll get Hosis ‘till you drop, but please let ‘em stay out of DA!”
I would love to get some reflections on this from the DA team. | 
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Lightzy
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN 2
Joined: 14 Aug 2002 |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 04:42PM | |
I refer you to my 'tactical combat' post, where one of the main points if not the most important, is how to make them suicidal relevancies. | |
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David Gaider
Lead Writer
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton, AB |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 04:44PM |
Quote: Posted 02/05/07 16:34 (GMT) by The UPHO
I would love to get some reflections on this from the DA team.
Sometimes a fight is just a fight. While I get what you're saying, I'm not sure the answer is to make every battle you do engage in to have epic meaning behind it. That would be one way, I think, to end up with a rather oddly-paced game which has hours of walking and talking interspersed with only sporadic exciting combat.
Not that the alternative is to sprinkle lots of meaningless fights in just to slow the player down. But you do have to keep in mind that this is a game, as well. You call this a design "flaw" (as if this is a given, I might add), but while the alternative sounds like it would be reasonable in theory I really doubt it would play well in practice.
_________________
Zevran: "Hello my stocky little friend!"
Oghren: "Huh. You got small breasts for a gal."
Zevran: "Ah. This is where we begin the typical dwarven/elven rivalry, is it?"
Oghren: "Nahhh." | |
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Randalish
Game Owner
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Jade Empire:SE
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Joined: 12 Oct 2004 |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 04:50PM |
Hmm. Good point. I will note that Baldur's Gate 2 actually had far less of this than other Bioware games like Kotor, or NWN1. I'm guessing 80% of the combat in BG2 actually involved plot specific enemies, or at least non-generic ones. (The mad priest of cyric that attacks you in the docks if you deny Cyric's glory is pretty random, but not generic. Same for the party of adventurers in the sewers that try to rob you. The goblins, on the other hand, are both random and generic. Boring)
NWN in particular had hordes of suicidal low level enemies to fight. They usually weren't randomly placed, i.e. escaped prisoners in the prison district, orcs in the orc caves. However, they were very generic and attacked in endless hordes and you needed to kill them to gain levels. Even in chapter 2 and 3 you had to fight huge groups of Goblins and Ogres which by that time didn't stand a chance at all against your character/party, yet had to be cut down nonetheless. (it usually took quite some time because although they were incredibly weak and not dangerous, they did have lots of hitpoints so I needed to hit them many times. I resorted to cheats to simply remove them all from the areas, just so I would waste less time.)
And even in Baldur's Gate, I don't think anything would have been lost if there hadn't been random groups of Yuan-Ti in Spellhold, or groups of Goblins in the sewers, or Umber Hulks in a random wizard's tower. Not every area needs to be filled with stuff to kill.
Edit: this was a reply to the OP, hadn't seen mr. Gaider's post yet.Edited By Randalish on 02/05/07 16:53 | |
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Beerfish
Moderator
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SW: KotOR PC
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Mass Effect
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 04:50PM |
Here is the problem game makers face. How do you advance character abilities. If you use the DnD rules you fight to get experience and off course get exp from other sources as well. Getting a whole wad of experinece for saying the right line in a conversation is just as unsatisfying as killing that 72nd skeleton.
Another point is that people like to win, they like to bet things down and skipping the kind of monster fighting they are used to and just concentrate on big/important battles can be frusterating. People don't mind the challenge of tough big battles if they can win a whole lot of smaller battles along the way and balancing those main battles is not an easy thing to do. What one person finds easy another can find impossible.
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Randalish
Game Owner
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Joined: 12 Oct 2004 |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 05:06PM |
Hmm. I don't think it's as difficult as all that.
Let's take for example Firkraag's dungeon in BG2. (spoilers ahead, though they're mostly minor)
You enter the dungeon and are encountered by a group of Orcs. How basic can you get? Basically, what the OP called "suicidal irrelevancies."
Except, there's the Orc's leader, who shouts something to the effect of "we're not ready yet! Hold them off!" and then runs away whilst you fight the random Orcs. Suddenly, it's not a random or generic action anymore, it's the enemy rearguard trying to delay you.
You then move into the dungeon, and encounter a few random Hobgoblin spawns. Those, I could have done without. They add nothing to this area.
But moving on, you meat the second line of defence. A mad Rakshasa has created a bunch of kamikazi kobolds, who run at you and explode. It's a bit silly, but definitely not boring.
You can then enter the next area. Again, you're attacked by Orcs. But this time, they HAVE prepared their defences. They shoot you from two sides through arrow slits in the walls. To get at the Orcs, you have to shoot back, or have your thief find the secret entrance leading to their fortification and pick the lock and then enter and kill them. They're still just Orcs, but this combat is neither generic nor random. They're intelligently defending their stronghold.
Moving on through the narrow corridor, you have to kill some Orcs in a straight fight. Not too interesting, but okay. Next, you enter the Orc barracks. The cook is a crazy troll who tells you to jump in the cooking pot and tries to kill you if you don't. Two stragglers are found in the barracks, who don't attack you but beg for mercy and tell you some stuff about the rest of the dungeon.
It goes on this way, with the occasional generic battle, but mostly with an added special cirumstance or two that make a battle unique. A fight against a group of werewolves, easily won, is followed by an attempt of a group of werewolves in human form to lure you in an ambush. There's a random group of Golems somewhere you can kill, but before that you witness an argument between some of Firkraag's henchmen which explains the dragon has painstakingly collected these and takes great pride in them, explaining their presence and lending the fight that follows some extra spiteful flavour.
There's plenty of game in this sequence. Many battles, a sidequest or two, some people to talk to, some minor puzzles to solve. But it's all interesting. It never repeats itself. It never feels like filler.
Undoubtedly, making this dungeon took tons more time than placing a few NWN encounters in a few corridors. But the difference in quality is immense. | |
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Lightzy
Game Owner
NWN
NWN 2
Joined: 14 Aug 2002 |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 05:10PM |
again I direct you to the combat mechanics thread 
why discuss wether hordes of suicidal irrelevancies is good design or not when you can discuss how to make it good gameplay instead? | |
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The UPHO
Joined: 05 Feb 2007 |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 05:30PM |
David, you have a point, that's why I wrote "I know this would be one of the greatest shifts of focus Bioware has ever done". But also, it doesn't have to be a black/white issue, and I wouldn't trade a good game with lots of combat for a bad one with only epic combat. The "design flaw" refers to games with to much "combat for combat's sake", which you will inevitably end up with if you put your dev focus on combat. And thus, I begin to question if the game is an RPG, maybe it should be called an action game.
Beerfish, I believe you're talking mechanics, which can be adjusted. You certainly wouldn't want to have loads of xp crammed into "saying the right line". And again, I don't mind smaller battles, I mind 100 smaller battles. | |
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The UPHO
Joined: 05 Feb 2007 |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 05:42PM |
Quote: Posted 02/05/07 17:06 (GMT) by Randalish
There's plenty of game in this sequence. Many battles, a sidequest or two, some people to talk to, some minor puzzles to solve. But it's all interesting. It never repeats itself. It never feels like filler.
Undoubtedly, making this dungeon took tons more time than placing a few NWN encounters in a few corridors. But the difference in quality is immense.
Yes, this type of thinking would bannish the Hosis and it's a great first step towards better games! But unfortunately it's a major shift in dev terms, as this type of game will require "tons more time". | |
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Gecon
Game Owner
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Joined: 01 Aug 2002
From: Germany |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 06:02PM |
Advice to the OP: *NEVER* *EVER* play a MMORPG.
The hours and hours and hours you just run in a round killing one and the same mob again and again and again until it FINALLY drops the recipe you want, or enough of a crafting ingredient you want...
Compared to that, you complaint about half a douzen or so encounters on KotoR with Kath Hounds is no less than FUNNY.
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We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep. - Prospero, The Tempest, by Shakespeare | |
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David Gaider
Lead Writer
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton, AB |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 06:09PM |
Quote: Posted 02/05/07 17:42 (GMT) by The UPHO
Yes, this type of thinking would bannish the Hosis and it's a great first step towards better games! But unfortunately it's a major shift in dev terms, as this type of game will require "tons more time".
Well, I'm not a fan of putting in mindless fights just so to expand the hours spent in a game anyhow... but neither do I think the other end is necessary, either. Some people like action, and while I wouldn't fill a game with it, I reject the idea that a game is only an RPG if it is all dialogue and interaction with combat being looked on as some kind of "necessary evil".
And if that's not what you mean, then what is this "great step towards making better games"? It's not as if our games are all mindless combat as it is.
_________________
Zevran: "Hello my stocky little friend!"
Oghren: "Huh. You got small breasts for a gal."
Zevran: "Ah. This is where we begin the typical dwarven/elven rivalry, is it?"
Oghren: "Nahhh." | |
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I Love Baldur's Gate II
Game Owner
 NWN 2
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
From: DA |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 06:19PM | |
It's all about proportion. Random and generic combats are fine and can add to the game, as long as there are not too many of them, with the 'too many' stipulation being entirely subjective. For example, I like NWN 2, but I do feel it has taken this too far. *Spoiler* I am currently on the way from one orc cave to another in Chapter 1, but the generic orc combats are grating on my nerves and I just wish they were over. Still, in principle, such combats can benefit the game if not overused. | |
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The UPHO
Joined: 05 Feb 2007 |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 06:26PM |
Quote: Posted 02/05/07 16:44 (GMT) by David Gaider
Sometimes a fight is just a fight. While I get what you're saying, I'm not sure the answer is to make every battle you do engage in to have epic meaning behind it. That would be one way, I think, to end up with a rather oddly-paced game which has hours of walking and talking interspersed with only sporadic exciting combat.
...sounds like it would be reasonable in theory I really doubt it would play well in practice.
Haven't you played any adventure games, like Dreamfall or Siberia? They contain hours of walking and talking plus solving problems and very few fights. They are closer to movies than RPG's - their storylines lacks breadth (a lot of solving puzzles in exactly the right way), and they include no character development controlled by the player - but they do work! Imagine a cross between these and an RPG like KoTOR. Why wouldn't it play well in practice?
In fact, Bioware RPG's have been moving in this direction for quite a while, I'm just hoping to push DA a bit further.
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gromnir's ghost
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
From: The Land of Almost Banned |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 06:33PM |
switch to quest-based exp will help curb developer reliance 'pon the experience mill situations... and will also lessen player desire for such nonsense. simply makes sure that cannon fodder only is carrying most meager 1007.
that being said, you takes out the cannon fodder battles that is so much a part of crpgs, and then you gots developers trying to find some other way to makes a 15 hour game feels like 40+... which we doubt they is gonna do.
as long as the cannon fodder not simply becomes a donkey kong scenario, then we is willing to endure the current model. anybody play HoW, the iwd expansion? there was some handful of s-shaped maps on which you over-and-over foughts tedious mini-battles simply so you could gets to the eventual exit... was like playing donkey kong 'stead of jumping barrels we were fighting small groups of trolls or undead. each mini-battle were just another barrel. terrible design.
kotor felt similar at times... bg2 were less so.
Gromnir am too old to be playing donkey kong and bio developer has too muh experience to needs rely on having to toss barrels at us for hours 'pon hours. you wanna have lots of easily beatble battles to fill up hours and make players feels like they is using their hard earned skills and abilities? fine, but if is nothing more than jumping barrels...
HA! Good Fun!
_________________
"The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?" - w.b. yeatsEdited By gromnir's ghost on 02/05/07 18:38 | |
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David Gaider
Lead Writer
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton, AB |
Posted: Monday, 05 February 2007 06:36PM |
Quote: Posted 02/05/07 18:26 (GMT) by The UPHO
Haven't you played any adventure games, like Dreamfall or Siberia? They contain hours of walking and talking plus solving problems and very few fights. They are closer to movies than RPG's - their storylines lacks breadth (a lot of solving puzzles in exactly the right way), and they include no character development controlled by the player - but they do work! Imagine a cross between these and an RPG like KoTOR. Why wouldn't it play well in practice?
I'm not sure I get it. You just said that Dreamfall and Siberia were more like movies than RPG's... yet you say you want our games to be more RPG-like than they currently are. So why would you suggest we move closer towards full-on adventure games?
Sure, those games work -- on their own level. They make good enough adventure games, if you're into that sort of thing. But they're very different, and they sacrifice player choice to add strength to their linear narrative. That's a trade-off you can't simply hand wave away.
Another thing those games don't have is much of a combat system. Whereas ours is pretty elaborate. If we are putting all that work into our combat system, what would be the point if we didn't have you in combat very often? Again, I don't suggest that we put in hordes of mindless fights just because, but having some is certainly not a bad thing.
Making an adventure game with slightly more player choice and the occasional combat may sound like the holy grail to you... but I'd be a bit careful with the implications that what you're talking about is an inherently better design.
_________________
Zevran: "Hello my stocky little friend!"
Oghren: "Huh. You got small breasts for a gal."
Zevran: "Ah. This is where we begin the typical dwarven/elven rivalry, is it?"
Oghren: "Nahhh." | |
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