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BioWare Forums  Forum Archives Old Dragon Age Forums Dragon Age (Old) Arms and Armor
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Planetus
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 Posted: Thursday, 09 November 2006 08:12PM |
Ok, there's been plenty of talk about how these things work in reality, and how we'd like to see them work in a game (ok, maybe not enough of that one), but I'd like to hear some opinions on changes from the traditional. What are you sick of? What would you like to see that hasn't been done enough?
Personally, I think bastard swords have seen their day. If you include them at all, let the player choose to wield them 1 or 2 handed, as they were intended, don't just make them another kind of longsword.
I'd like to see heavy armor that actually renders shields useless, so 2-handed weapons can be used without any MORE penalties.
I'd like to see the return of the good old ball-and-chain, or maybe the less familiar manriki-guisaru(sp?), which is basically a japanese ball-and-chain.
I'd like to not see whips, as they really don't work in serious combat.
I'd like to see a variety of helmets, and I'd like them to actually do something.
I wouldn't at all mind (considering the low magic setting) seeing available weapons get better as the game progresses, kind of like console games like FF do things. Start out with a copper dirk and end up with the assasin's dagger. Maybe it's not magical, but it is better designed and stronger. THEN add magical stuff near the end, like the firebrand sword or something. That one's just an idea. | 
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bluish_wolf
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Posted: Thursday, 09 November 2006 08:25PM |
"I'd like to see heavy armor that actually renders shields useless, so 2-handed weapons can be used without any MORE penalties."
Isn't that the ONLY penalty of two-handed weapons? The fact that you can't use a shield.
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Mamama makimonu nukunuku pururun kanskoku raberabe howahowa. These words really do have a meaning. They're a love spell! Papapa paprun munemune uttori yussari petapeta nokinoki. I'll have to make more suggestions. GO! | |
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StormHammer
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From: the Valley Of Shadows |
Posted: Thursday, 09 November 2006 08:52PM |
If we have the same kind of diversity of weapons and armour that was in Neverwinter Nights, then I'll be more than satisfied. In fact, I could manage with far less choice of weapons if it means better animation and functionality for the choices that remain.
I mean, rather than having one basic animation for each of a wide variety of different types of weapons, I'd rather have a greater variety of combination and power attacks for a smaller number of weapons.
I think the game Oblivion took this a little too far by restricting you to just Blade, Blunt, Hand-to-Hand or Bows, with many duplicate animations for Blade and Blunt. I'd like to see a bit more diversity than that.
But honestly I have no real preference regarding weapons or armour, as long as it looks good and functions well.
Maybe have staffs for mages which can be used as bludgeoning weapons as well as conduits for magic (anyone remember Gandalf wielding staff and blade in the battle for Minas Tirith?).
A whip would make more sense if it was used as a disabling weapon rather than trying to inflict damage - for example, lashing out to snare someone's sword hand to disarm them, or their leg to pull their weight from under them. That is a far more effective use than trying to lash someone to death.
By the same token, we never see things like nets appear in these kinds of games, yet they were used very effectively by gladiators as a disabling device to snare weapons or opponents and give them an advantage.
Personally, I would love the ability to throw any weapon at an opponent, like in the game Rune. Hammers, axes, swords...even the severed heads of the fallen - you could throw anything at your remaining opponents. It would be good to see that in the game, rather than be restricted to 'throwing axes' or 'throwing knives'.
If they were to implement just throwing axes, however, it would make sense to me to restrict the number you carry while making them far more lethal in terms of damage. This is something that always annoyed me while playing NWN - carrying around 50 throwing axes, which all meted out very little damage, and didn't make much sense. Give me two large throwing axes with a 50% chance to get a headshot for a one-shot-kill takedown, and that would be far better imo. Then allow you to retrieve those weapons at the end of the battle.
Maybe have more 'grenade' like weapons with flammable or vitriolic liquids and gases in flasks that can be thrown.
But when it comes to things like swords, I hope Bioware just comes up with some interesting designs. I don't care if they are all Katana style, or Scimitars, or just long swords, as long as the combat animations are good, and the weapons look interesting and deadly.
I would only say I hope the weapons are proportional to the character, because too many games have weapons that are outlandishly large and unwieldy looking in relation to the character wielding them. | |
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Sylvius the Mad
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From: Vancouver, BC |
Posted: Thursday, 09 November 2006 10:07PM |
This reminds me of the old BG2 boards where Draconis (the Master of Deception) kept demanding the inclusion of the Mancatcher (a weapon I don't even think got converted to 3E).
NWN had perhaps the best combat animations of any FRPG ever, so I'm feeling fairly confident on that front.
But I really think we won't see a huge variety of weapons available. Stuff like nets and whips that require their own animation styles and mechanics are simply too labour intensive to include. | |
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The Wild Turkey
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Posted: Thursday, 09 November 2006 10:08PM |
Quote: Posted 11/09/06 20:12 (GMT) by Planetus
Ok, there's been plenty of talk about how these things work in reality, and how we'd like to see them work in a game (ok, maybe not enough of that one), but I'd like to hear some opinions on changes from the traditional. What are you sick of? What would you like to see that hasn't been done enough?
Personally, I think bastard swords have seen their day. If you include them at all, let the player choose to wield them 1 or 2 handed, as they were intended, don't just make them another kind of longsword.
I'd like to see heavy armor that actually renders shields useless, so 2-handed weapons can be used without any MORE penalties.
I'd like to see the return of the good old ball-and-chain, or maybe the less familiar manriki-guisaru(sp?), which is basically a japanese ball-and-chain.
I'd like to not see whips, as they really don't work in serious combat.
I'd like to see a variety of helmets, and I'd like them to actually do something.
I wouldn't at all mind (considering the low magic setting) seeing available weapons get better as the game progresses, kind of like console games like FF do things. Start out with a copper dirk and end up with the assasin's dagger. Maybe it's not magical, but it is better designed and stronger. THEN add magical stuff near the end, like the firebrand sword or something. That one's just an idea.
You do realise that bastard swords and longswords are one and the same, just different names for the same weapon. I really hope that DA gets this right instead of falling into the old DnD fallacy that they're different weapons.
I agree with all your other points, particularly about the heavy armour. A full suit of gothic plate basically rendered the knight invulnerable to any of the weapons at the time.
What I'd also like to see are opportunities to use shields offensively, either to bash your opponent, or to bind their weapon, rendering them unable to defend against your attack.Edited By The Wild Turkey on 11/09/06 22:11 | |
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Planetus
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Posted: Thursday, 09 November 2006 11:05PM |
Well, 2-handers are usually much slower than 1-handers, which I don't like.
Whips aren't actually that useful at disarming/disabling people in combat. They were used as punishment on confined people with no armor or protection of any kind, and that was really it. Hollywood invented the whip-trip and the like.
I'd love to see some nets in here, and they should be reusable, short ranged (2-3 times melee range). That would be wonderful. No damage, but a high change of disarming the target (assuming they have a weapon) and a smaller, but still decent chance of paralyzing any man-sized or smaller targets for a few seconds. Couple that on the off-hand with a 1-handed weapon in the primary and I'll love it.
Throwing anything would be nice, but then you have to worry about being able to pick it up again, which means drop mechanics, keeping track of it, what happens if it misses, all that stuff which is usually too much work for so little a feature.
The longsword is a modern term, and a much more general one, generally refering to anything with a blade much longer than your fore-arm, but shorter than 1/2 your height. These are rough parameters for short-swords and great-swords anyway. In games like this, the longsword generally refers to one short enough to be comfortably used in one hand.
I like the offensive shield idea. Razor-edged shields may be realistically impractical, but they're great in a fantasy setting. Shield-bashing is a legitimate combat technique, too.
ok, here's my basic list of weapons types:
longsword(1-handed), greatsword, mace, war hammer, battle axe(2-handed), hatchet (they are very different combat styles), staff, dagger, maybe short-sword, scimitars can be included in longswords as they are similar combat styles, katanas, some kind of chain and/or net, sicle can go with hatchets, maybe scythe, halbreds, and spears can go together, and shields.
Any I'm missing?
I'm grouping these in terms of battle animations, by the way, and these are only suggestions for combat skills, if indeed we have any such thing.
Ok, that's 13 groups. Think 3 attack animations for each, that's 39 attack animations, would that be too much? How many attack animations are reasonable for a game like this?
Armor:
leather armor (maybe light and heavy), but no studded (never saw the point in that and don't know if it ever actually existed or not). Banded armor (think roman legion style), splint mail, chain mail, breast plate, half plate, field plate, maybe full plate. And then of course the basic clothes, robes, etc. Maybe throw in some interesting stuff like samurai armor (much ligher than plate, but harder to make, too). | |
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bluish_wolf
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Posted: Thursday, 09 November 2006 11:27PM |
"studded (never saw the point in that and don't know if it ever actually existed or not)."
Studded leather does exist. It's not the studs themselves that protect you, but the metal plates that are studded into the leather.
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Mamama makimonu nukunuku pururun kanskoku raberabe howahowa. These words really do have a meaning. They're a love spell! Papapa paprun munemune uttori yussari petapeta nokinoki. I'll have to make more suggestions. GO!Edited By bluish_wolf on 11/09/06 23:27 | |
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Aedan mac Gabran
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Posted: Thursday, 09 November 2006 11:28PM | |
For me, diversity is unimportant unless it leeds to real choice. If there are two types of weapons they should each have advantages and disadvantages. Maybe one is more effective against heavy armor, but less effective against light armor. Or perhaps one weapon is more powerful than another, but requires more points spent in it at levelup to be used effectivly. You have to be specialized in order to use it, which limits the character's tactical options. NWN and the D&D rules are terrible for this as most different types of weapons are just more of the same or completely useless. | |
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wanderingswordsman
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Posted: Friday, 10 November 2006 01:01AM |
Whips aren't that useless, there are many designs to whips, there are short whips, hard whips(think of a piece of wood with a serious taper). People put knots or bits of steel or pieces of glass on their whips to make them more effective. A short whip dipped in glass is a very good weapon(especially for taking out eyes). Definately not a battlefield weapon but good for self defence.
But anyway my main desire for weapons is to have two-handed swords that are not necessarily "great" swords. I I would like to see a category of sword in between one-handed sword and a great sword, and it should be classed as a two-handed sword.
The other thing I want is variety, it feels like something is missing in oblivion because they don't have spears and staves. I would like to see DA have all the major categories of weapons.
And a final thing, I would like to see a difference between human weaponry and armour, dwarven weaponry and armour and elven weaponry and armour. And if at all possible a difference in fighting styles and combat animations for the races as well.
edit: I almost forgot I would also like to see dual wielding(i think the chances are good). But I would like to see it work a little like D&D, ie you should NOT be able to wield two longswords. But instead of penalising you for wielding two 'heavy' weapons, they should categorise it by length. To dual wield effectively you should have a short weapon in your off-hand(or better yet a short weapon in both hands)
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Al Swearengen: You don't want to interfere with me.
Calamity Jane: You think I'm scared of you?
Al Swearengen: Sure you are. And if I take a knife to you you'll be scared worse and a long time dying.Edited By wanderingswordsman on 11/10/06 01:16 | |
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StormHammer
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From: the Valley Of Shadows |
Posted: Friday, 10 November 2006 01:31AM |
Quote: Posted 11/09/06 23:05 (GMT) by Planetus
Whips aren't actually that useful at disarming/disabling people in combat. They were used as punishment on confined people with no armor or protection of any kind, and that was really it. Hollywood invented the whip-trip and the like.
True...but this is a fantasy game after all, and a magic whip is entirely plausible.
Quote: Throwing anything would be nice, but then you have to worry about being able to pick it up again, which means drop mechanics, keeping track of it, what happens if it misses, all that stuff which is usually too much work for so little a feature.
Oblivion handles this quite well. You can drop anything, see it bounce around, and pick it up again. Loosed arrows can also hit walls and bounce around, or land in earth, and you can retrieve them. So it is certainly possible. Whether the devs want to code it is another matter.
As for your weapons list, I would lump these together...
* 1-handed swords/scimitars (normal slashing and some thrusts)
* 2-handed swords, battle axes, katanas (two-handed slower more powerful slashing)
* Short-swords, daggers (quick stabbing motion and fast slashing)
* Maces, clubs, war hammers (long arcs to build momentum - usually aimed at the head or joints)
* Hatchets, scythes, sickles (fast slashing)
* Halberds/Pikes, spears, (two-handed thrusting + deadfalls)
* Quarterstaff/Mage staff (blocking, thrusting and swinging)
* Chain or net (offhand only - sweeping movement)
* Shields (offhand only - offensive battering ram and defensive block)
A coup-de-grace finishing move for enemies on the ground.
That, of course, is assuming they use any of those weapon types, and that is quite enough to be going on with in terms of animations. There is even an opportunity of crossover between some of those weapon groups when it comes to slashing animations.
When it comes to armour, it would be good to see a variety of different materials used, including bone, chitin, furs, hard woods coated in resin, reptilian animal scales - to add some spice to the usual leather, iron and steel. | |
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Ellderon Starsunder
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Posted: Friday, 10 November 2006 10:57AM |
Quote: Posted 11/09/06 20:25 (GMT) by bluish_wolf
"I'd like to see heavy armor that actually renders shields useless, so 2-handed weapons can be used without any MORE penalties."
Isn't that the ONLY penalty of two-handed weapons? The fact that you can't use a shield.
Mostly so. I tend to agree that, while full plate armor was superb, it really can't substitute a shield.
A shield is simply better at stopping arros and delfelcting/blocking hits (partially becosue it's not 1mm away from your skin!)
That said, the way most games work, two-handers end up as a worse choice simply becouse a magical sword + magical shield end up having more/better enchantments than two-handers, and the greatsword is made too heavy/slow to actually be worth the use.
Fix that and not having a shield is no problem as far as "penalties" go
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Gecon
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Posted: Friday, 10 November 2006 02:02PM |
Just make sure that any weapon and armor type has its use.
Not like in Oblivion - where blunt is just a worse blade, and hand-to-hand is just pathetic.
Ironically, the dagger, shortsword, longsword, claymore series of blade weapons had extreme differences in their fighting style; daggers being very light and allowing extreme speed, while claymore having extraordinary range. IMHO it would have made much more sense to differ between the weapon sizes instead of differing between blade, blunt, and the useless hand-to-hand.
In Lineage 2 it was like that:
- Fists - allowed extreme attack speed (good mage disruption, best average damage per time unit overall)
- Daggers - allowed high attack speed and many critical hits (again good mage disruption, second best damage per time unit overall, underdog bonus - you might deal more damage than anybody else if you have luck and get a line of criticals)
- Swords - allowed special damage attacks, more criticals than blunt
- Blunts - allowed stun attacks
- Twohanded - slow but most and reliable damage per single attack
- Polearm - low damage, but allowed attacking multiple enemies at a time
- Bow - ranged attacks
Thats IMHO also a very reasonable selection - not that it really made sense that you can attack multiple opponents with a polearm, but still.
Quote: Posted 11/10/06 10:57 (GMT) by Ellderon Starsunder
I tend to agree that, while full plate armor was superb, it really can't substitute a shield.
A shield is simply better at stopping arros and delfelcting/blocking hits (partially becosue it's not 1mm away from your skin!)
Thats wrong in 2 ways:
1. The term "full plate" addresses tornament armor. The plate armor used on the battle field is called "field plate".
2. That armor is NOT 1 mm away from your skin. Below the plates one wears padded armor, and possibly also a mail. The plates of the armor distribute the impact of the arrow, bolt, or melee weapon blow, while the padded armor softens it afterwards. The mail protects against directed attacks between the plates.
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We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep. - Prospero, The Tempest, by ShakespeareEdited By Gecon on 11/10/06 14:12 | |
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Randalish
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Posted: Friday, 10 November 2006 03:28PM |
Plate armour can't replace a shield? That's not what history shows. When plate armour came into widespread use, shields all but disappeared from the battlefield. People used two-handed weapons instead. So we can safely conclude that plate armour did indeed render shields obsolete. (plus, having a two-handed weapon was very useful when trying to kill an opponent also wearing plate.)
Re: two handed weapons. People keep saying they're slower than one-handed weapons. They're not. Why should they be, when a two-handed sword is only slightly heavier than a one-handed specimen, and is used with two hands giving much greater strength and leverage? | |
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The Wild Turkey
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Posted: Friday, 10 November 2006 08:56PM |
Quote: Posted 11/10/06 15:28 (GMT) by Randalish
Plate armour can't replace a shield? That's not what history shows. When plate armour came into widespread use, shields all but disappeared from the battlefield. People used two-handed weapons instead. So we can safely conclude that plate armour did indeed render shields obsolete. (plus, having a two-handed weapon was very useful when trying to kill an opponent also wearing plate.)
Re: two handed weapons. People keep saying they're slower than one-handed weapons. They're not. Why should they be, when a two-handed sword is only slightly heavier than a one-handed specimen, and is used with two hands giving much greater strength and leverage?
This is true, and something I wish people who post opinions on how medieval armour and weapons would actually educate themselves on because DnD got it so wrong.
Longswords vary in size depending on the part of europe they come from, but George Silver (an english master) defined a perfect longsword as being as having a blade that's the same length as a the shortsword, but has a longer handle and is made for use with two hands. Silver's perfect length for both long and shortswords is relative to the user as it's dependent on their height and the length of their arm. My perfect length is about 36 inches.
Silver also wrote that two handed swords have the advantage in speed and power over one handed swords, but one handed swords have the advantage in reach. After training in both short and long sword systems I can personally attest to their speed.
This is so important I feel it's worth saying it again. TWO HANDED WEAPONS ARE FASTER THAN ONE HANDED WEAPONS. Got your attention yet?
When I wrote about shields being used offensively, I didn't mean putting razor edges on them. That would just be the height of foolishness to turn your shield side on to your opponent. What I meant was using the shield to trap your opponents weapon against his body so that he's unable to ward or defend against your attack. Such binding is a common and widely used tactic in just about every sword and shield system I'm aware of. | |
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The Wild Turkey
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Posted: Friday, 10 November 2006 08:58PM |
Quote: Posted 11/09/06 23:27 (GMT) by bluish_wolf
"studded (never saw the point in that and don't know if it ever actually existed or not)."
Studded leather does exist. It's not the studs themselves that protect you, but the metal plates that are studded into the leather.
It's called Brigandine armour. It's more like field plate than anything else, except the metal plates were on the inside instead of the outside. Something else that DnD got horribly wrong. | |
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