Edited By schalafi on 12/05/07 22:17

Edited By Chronos1985 on 12/05/07 22:24

Quote: Posted 12/05/07 03:31 (GMT) by David Gaider

The plot model you point out isn't any kind of mandate. It is, rather, an observation of the route we tend to take-- for some very good reasons.

I know that it's very easy for the jaded to bemoan how very tired they are of it all, god forbid their delicate sensibilities have to endure yet another epic adventure, right?

Edited By eseleth on 12/05/07 22:53

Quote: Posted 12/05/07 22:52 (GMT) by eseleth

Wait, but what if I like the epic plotline, am looking forward to the final confrontation, and find satisfaction in killing Irenicus (or Malak)? And yeah, while I'm all for multiple explanations, I usually do want to kill someone in the final confrontation if I'm given the choice.

Moral and ethical choices are cool, interesting NPCs are essential, and I suppose I wouldn't mind running a castle, but I do like a bit of plot with my exploration.

Quote: Posted 12/05/07 22:46 (GMT) by Shoofly

What perplexes me is that best part of the games are is the part where the model gets disregarded (the infamous Chapter II) and character development is explored (e.g. how the PC relates to the world and other characters and how those characters relate to each other)through side quests and non traditional narratives. E.g. managing a castle, making a moral choice, exploring an npc's dilemna, reacting to injustice, etc. What does any of this have to do with epic? It's a form of superhuman everyday living where the PC defines what they want themselves to be through a series of small challenges.

The epic plot line feels like a throw in to let some players know the game is over and it's time to stop staring at the screen.

"Woops! I've explored and completed all of this rich and textured world, found out as much as I can about myself, my cohorts and the world at large as I possibly can in this installment, so now it's time to go get my unhappy surprise and kill Jon Irenicus. Uh, wait a minute, Darth Malak."

You've got this plot model down pat. Why not do something different and challenge yourselves and your players? Why does the solution to a problem have to be the application of pure brute force to a to a demonized aggressor? This is not creative in real life, nor is creative in interactive art (which is the place where it should be creative!)

Or are you saying that the person who plays the Bioware games is Moorcock's eternal champion doomed to constantly repeat the same struggle across the multiverse?

Quote: Posted 12/05/07 22:46 (GMT) by Shoofly
You've got this plot model down pat. Why not do something different and challenge yourselves and your players? Why does the solution to a problem have to be the application of pure brute force to a to a demonized aggressor? This is not creative in real life, nor is creative in interactive art (which is the place where it should be creative!)

Or are you saying that the person who plays the Bioware games is Moorcock's eternal champion doomed to constantly repeat the same struggle across the multiverse?

Quote: Posted 12/05/07 22:38 (GMT) by Korusus

It's more than just a plot-line (which I agree is also becoming derivative). Even though I enjoyed Mass Effect, I can't help but notice that there are many Bioware trademarks in it that I think keep repeating themselves, and they're getting worn out.

1) Like other posters have mentioned...betrayal is a common Biowarian theme that has been overplayed.

2) The "Go to these four locations to unlock the key to the boss level" is another Biowarian theme that has been overplayed, and to be honest I was kind of shocked to see it reused in Mass Effect.

3) The "All modern civilization is derived from an ancient race of beings that died out a long, long time ago" is another tired Bioware trademark.

4) The guy that played Carth Onasi's voice is quickly becoming a tired Bioware theme

5) The "speak to all your party members after the next big plot line to get the next installment of their lifestory" is also tired.

While these have been quaint in the past, I'd like to echo that they're starting to get old.

Quote: Posted 12/05/07 23:19 (GMT) by Mary Kirby
I am a huge fan of exploration in games. That was what persuaded me to play CRPGs in the first place. However...

Why do I want to explore any given rich, detailed world or interact with the people in it? I have found, in my own experiences with games, that the plot is what fuels my interest in the world and even in my party members.

The first time I picked up Morrowind, I hated it. I wandered around a few cities and poked my head into a smugglers' cave and promptly got bored. At several friends' insistance, I picked it up again almost a year later and tried playing through the critical path. I fell in love with the island I was on, and the people on it only when I started to explore that story. I played Morrowind to learn more about my character's relationship to Nerevar, Azura, the Tribunal, and Dagoth Ur. When I finished the main plot, I lost all interest in playing further. In BG2, Irenicus was the carrot that lured me through Chapter 2. Jolee has been, quite possibly, my favorite character to date in any game, but I only found him and his stories appealing because they were relevant to me; I knew he was telling me something about myself, that he knew things about me I didn't know.

I'm more than willing to accept the idea that there are gamers with tastes and motivations different from mine. But the first task we writers have (whether we're talking games or plain old print fiction) is to persuade the audience that the world we are inviting them to explore is worth their time. A good villain can do that better than almost anything else. Irenicus, or Malak, or Sephiroth, or Dagoth Ur immediately makes the world around me relevant. It is no longer a sea of details that have no meaning to me, personally. I know where my character fits into it, I have an urge to find out what is at stake, I know that if I look around enough, I will find the roots of what caused all this. And now I can go exploring, which is what I love to do.

Quote: As I said, I've got nothing against trying different things-- but different does not make it good, no more than familiar makes it bad. You seem to be saying that only by doing something different can we be creative, which I don't agree with.

Quote: Sure, I wouldn't mind doing something really different with the story, myself-- but I am a writer. If writing were all there were to making a game, that wouldn't be such an issue, but of course it's not.

Quote: Why do I want to explore any given rich, detailed world or interact with the people in it? I have found, in my own experiences with games, that the plot is what fuels my interest in the world and even in my party members.

Quote: Posted 12/06/07 00:10 (GMT) by Shoofly
Mixing it up can help free the mind from the patterns that constipate creativity. e.g/ A lot of great painters sculpt or sketch for periods of time and come back to brush work. And sometimes they make masterpieces in the other mediums.

Quote: Why not make some small titles with 12-18 month development cycles that fit in between these 4-5 year behemoths and challenge them to be better?

Quote: Posted 12/06/07 00:26 (GMT) by Shoofly

Good point Mary, but as a writer how would you drive the game forward if the first cutscene was the dreaded antagonist slipping on a banana peel and killing himself?

In other words, you have the protagonist, you have the interesting world, you have the rich characters. The villain bent on world domination is dead. Dr. Evil choked on a hot pocket

What would you do as a writer to get the user interested in the game? Or is do you feel a traditional antagonist free game is DOA on arrival?